D&D General Wizard vs Fighter - the math

[Oofta]

No, not in practice thst I've ever seen. The DMG describes how to set up a full dungeon thst will push a party. If anything less is done, things get a little wacky but will still work just fine. But if a table feels there is a caster/fighter imbalance, that is a symptom of the party needing to be pushed harder. Simple as.

I've also never seen a single character that can do all the things people claim. A dex based fighter can make a pretty decent rogue replacement for example. On the other hand a wizard casting knock only works if you ignore the sound that can be heard 300 feet away. Just like they ignore the downsides of charm person and several other spells.

 

[FrogReaver]

I didn’t get into the minutiae but relatively small factors can totally change the results.

Variables:
Magic weapons / magic wands and staffs

How many targets in aoe’s

Adverse conditions (tend to affect martials more often - disadvantage rarely affects wizards much).

Fighter subclass chosen

Wizard spells chosen

What feats are being utilized

How many spell resources need to go to defense instead of offense

How often do you get advantage

Etc.

Depending on the choices made, we can make the analysis show just about whatever.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yep. Trouble is the wizard can fill the wizard’s role…and the fighter’s role…and the rogue’s role. So there’s a problem with the wizard. As shown in the OP and several other threads. The wizard matches or outclasses the fighter in damage. The fighter’s role is damage dealing. The wizard’s role is not. And this is a wizard without subclass features. Imagine how much worse the imbalance would be with an evoker. Add in a no-brainer class of spells like monster summoning and you do even more damage than the fighter…who’s niche is damage dealing. It doesn’t take math skills to see it’s problematic.

Yep. Summon fey with a 4th level slot and a cantrip cast will compare well with a GWM or ss fighter in damage at the same level. That’s one spell. If another is better for a situation then use it.

The downside with summons is sometimes they take your first round. So fighter can be quite a bit more front loaded - which is an important consideration.

Personally I find Tasha’s laughter and web to be far more useful than damage spells. They’ve trivialized many encounters for my groups.

 

[FrogReaver]

I've also never seen a single character that can do all the things people claim. A dex based fighter can make a pretty decent rogue replacement for example. On the other hand a wizard casting knock only works if you ignore the sound that can be heard 300 feet away. Just like they ignore the downsides of charm person and several other spells.

Yep. While I think wizards are stronger than fighters at higher levels tier 3+. Wizards and fighters are very close through level 6.

 

[overgeeked]

I've also never seen a single character that can do all the things people claim. A dex based fighter can make a pretty decent rogue replacement for example. On the other hand a wizard casting knock only works if you ignore the sound that can be heard 300 feet away. Just like they ignore the downsides of charm person and several other spells.

When you're talking about a group of itinerant sellswords, you know...like most PCs are, enforcing the downsides of charm person aren't anywhere near as big a deal as you seem to think. Yes, the nameless guard three towns back hates the wizard because of the charm person spell. So what? This isn't the world-ending consequence you keep trying to make it out to be.

Also note that it's "several other spells" not all other spells. Only some of the other-class obviating spells have downsides. Many do not. Pass without trace, invisibility, etc. Literally zero downsides. Focusing no the 3-4 spells that have downsides is a bit silly.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Also note that it's "several other spells" not all other spells. Only some of the other-class obviating spells have downsides. Many do not. Pass without trace, invisibility, etc. Literally zero downsides. Focusing no the 3-4 spells that have downsides is a bit silly.

Knock was an example used for many years in such discussions, and example, one of many. So, in the Next playtest, the fixed it by making it loud.
No, it no longer steps on the Thief's lockpicks.
Which, are now just a Tool Use anyone can pick up.

 

[Oofta]

When you're talking about a group of itinerant sellswords, you know...like most PCs are, enforcing the downsides of charm person aren't anywhere near as big a deal as you seem to think. Yes, the nameless guard three towns back hates the wizard because of the charm person spell. So what? This isn't the world-ending consequence you keep trying to make it out to be.

Also note that it's "several other spells" not all other spells. Only some of the other-class obviating spells have downsides. Many do not. Pass without trace, invisibility, etc. Literally zero downsides. Focusing no the 3-4 spells that have downsides is a bit silly.

That assumes you never return to that town. Charm a guard? They're likely to report to their captain and other guards will be, at best, wary of the entire group since the caster could be disguised.

I'm not saying spells are pointless. It's just never going to totally negate every other option in any game I've ever played.

 

[overgeeked]

That assumes you never return to that town. Charm a guard? They're likely to report to their captain and other guards will be, at best, wary of the entire group since the caster could be disguised.

Yes, if the referee decides to enforce consequences, then there will be consequences. That applies to literally everything in the game. You're framing things as if there are automatic and permanent consequences that the game itself enforces. That's obviously not the case. You seem to think that charming one guard means the location is permanently hostile to the entire party forever. That's certainly an option available to you when you run the game. But you should acknowledge that's not going to be every referee's choice. And if that's the sole balancing mechanic for wizards...well, we're right back to the blinking neon sign of balance problems with the wizard.

I'm not saying spells are pointless.

Good. They're obviously wildly powerful. Far beyond what they should be.

It's just never going to totally negate every other option in any game I've ever played.

Lucky you. I've had that happen repeatedly. Players have literally just stopped playing their non-caster characters to play casters because non-casters were useless, underpowered, etc. Not just in games I've run, in games I've played, too.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Knock was an example used for many years in such discussions, and example, one of many. So, in the Next playtest, the fixed it by making it loud.
No, it no longer steps on the Thief's lockpicks.
Which, are now just a Tool Use anyone can pick up.

Could have just left it out instead of wasting space with a spell designed to punish the party for the wizard pretending to be a rogue.

 

[Oofta]

Yes, if the referee decides to enforce consequences, then there will be consequences. That applies to literally everything in the game. You're framing things as if there are automatic and permanent consequences that the game itself enforces. That's obviously not the case. You seem to think that charming one guard means the location is permanently hostile to the entire party forever. That's certainly an option available to you when you run the game. But you should acknowledge that's not going to be every referee's choice. And if that's the sole balancing mechanic for wizards...well, we're right back to the blinking neon sign of balance problems with the wizard.

Good. They're obviously wildly powerful. Far beyond what they should be.

Lucky you. I've had that happen repeatedly. Players have literally just stopped playing their non-caster characters to play casters because non-casters were useless, underpowered, etc. Not just in games I've run, in games I've played, too.

My current group is starting a new group, they're going to have a war cleric as their only caster. If you never implement logical consequences and only have 15 minute work days then of course you get different results.