D&D General Wizard vs Fighter - the math

If humans mechanically sucked as an ancestry, humans would still be the most popular ancestry.

Popularity is not the best metric of balance or even satisfaction. Many times people are drawn to a class or ancestry due to the appeal of the fantasy. Crawford said as much himself in a recent video.
Yes, but I have also pointed out that when you search 5e tier rankings you discover that fighters are consistently ranked as one of the stronger classes in 5e. They are ranked very similarly to wizards, actually: sometimes at or near the top, and almost always in the top half.

I also note that fighters are NOT automatically the most popular class in other, similar games.

So we have two pieces of evidence that both suggest fighters are not widely viewed as a problem class. A third piece of evidence: huge changes are not being floated for fighters in OneD&D, so WotC, who have more evidence than any of us, obviously do not see the basic fighter chassis as a problem, unlike, say, the monk, warlock, or druid.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

This one in particular is kind of hilarious given how little movie characters 'function like humans' and no one but the most cinema-experience-ruining people care.
Because people get used to it and now it is a Trope. Like I said in one of the posts: You can train people in general to accept more outlandish things.
Also it is not about realism per se. It just needs to feel realistic enough. Especially things that are outside of the normal experience of most players/viewers can be unrealistic, as long as they feel real enough.

Like ... most Law-Shows - all the courtroom scenes are actually quite unrealistic, but the average movie-goer doesn't know that, because he never was in a courtroom.
The same with fights or falling from great hights and catching yourself.
Most people never fell down an elevator shaft like John McClain in Die Hard, so you don't know that him catching himself with his fingers after that fall length would at best break all his fingers. But if feels real enough, because all the rest of John McClain in Die Hard 1 feels so real. His divorce stuff, his suffering. That is also the reason that Die Hard 4, 5 (and 6? is there a sixth one or ended it at 5?) bombed so hard - because the action there was too over the top and the humanising elements to the story were minimised.
And yes, Action in Action Movies of today is mostly over the top - but that works, because for the good action movies the rest makes sense. The motivation of the good guys and bad guys is clear and relatable (Die Hard 1 again - John McClain wants to stop the bad guys, the bad guys want the money - the Police outside wants to safe lives, the FBI wants to stop the bad guys at all costs and are seen as naughty words by the police ...).
Like Die Hard stretched what bodily punishment a human can endure and exaggerated some human abilities for the sake of tension, but it didn't outright break them in a sense, that the average moviegoer would say, that that doesn't make any sense.

But coming back to TTRPGs - yeah, I would quit any game where the DM would create 1000 Orcs out of thin air to punish us for resting or where a red ancient dragon would attack us 1st Level Characters out of nowhere.

I agree, that D&D is a game and it needs to deliver a good game experience. So we can't have a 100% fantasy world simulation, with a real breathing and living world, because that would kill our adventure party pretty quickly.
The DM has to curate the game experience, so that the players have a fair chance of survival/playing the game.
But at the same time, TTRPGs live from the game experience. They live from the world building. The live from the immersion in to the Game World.
So the most difficult task for a Game Master is to curate the Game Experience in a way that the Game World feels real, living, changing and breathing, while at the same time tailoring it, so the characters don't just die instantly.
That the Game World is a living, breathing thing is an Illusion a Game Master needs to create in order for the players to be able to immerse themselves into the game.
So, D&D is a game and it needs to be balanced and curated like one, but it shouldn't feel like one at the table when you are playing it.
 

I can't speak to what happens in Germany - my understanding is that D&D is not very big there - but we know from WotC's own data that fighter is the most popular class by a significant margin, so your experiences are an outlier in the wider context of D&D, yes.
In Germany D&D is the biggest TTRPG, too, but the competition is stronger. Germany has a native TTRPG called "Das schwarze Auge" (The dark eye The Dark Eye - Wikipedia ) that was a long time market leader but D&D caught up in the last years. Das Schwarze Auge is even more crunchy than Pathfinder 2. Maybe Germans do like more bookkeeping.

Maybe I will do a poll in one of the bigger German Facebook groups, to see what classes usually are played.
 

It's been well documented that people in different countries play games differently. A great example was when competitive American Magic: The Gathering players encountered Japanese players in a major tournament- the American players were running lean, highly focused and tuned decks designed to win as fast as possible. The Japanese players were happy to assemble strange Rube Goldbergian combos- one player gave himself thousands of life points (as I recall). When pressed if he had a way to actually win, it was found he didn't- he lost, the American player won, and the Japanese player didn't seem to mind one bit.

Which I suppose is another issue when designing a game for a global market- if most players from country A love Fighters, and represent your (current) largest player base, but you really want to break into the market of country B, and the people there think Druids are the best thing since sliced bread, maybe the answer is to buff Druids- you already have the happy Fighter players in country A, after all.
 


So, I started the poll and so far I have over 100 Answers, but of course I can't really call it representative yet, but so far the Paladin is in the lead with 13%, followed by the cleric with 10%. Warlock & Rogue are at 8%, Fighter at 7 and Wizard at 6%.
Least liked class so far is the Sorcerer with 1% even behind the Artificer with 2%. The rest is inbetween 3% and 6%. I will go to bed now and see how the poll will look tomorrow (it's midnight in Germany right now).
 

In Germany D&D is the biggest TTRPG, too, but the competition is stronger. Germany has a native TTRPG called "Das schwarze Auge" (The dark eye The Dark Eye - Wikipedia ) that was a long time market leader but D&D caught up in the last years. Das Schwarze Auge is even more crunchy than Pathfinder 2. Maybe Germans do like more bookkeeping.

Maybe I will do a poll in one of the bigger German Facebook groups, to see what classes usually are played.
I played the computer game years ago (not very long, admittedly, as it was really hard to get everything figured out). Never played the tabletop, but I saw it around when I lived in Germany
 

So, I started the poll and so far I have over 100 Answers, but of course I can't really call it representative yet, but so far the Paladin is in the lead with 13%, followed by the cleric with 10%. Warlock & Rogue are at 8%, Fighter at 7 and Wizard at 6%.
Least liked class so far is the Sorcerer with 1% even behind the Artificer with 2%. The rest is inbetween 3% and 6%. I will go to bed now and see how the poll will look tomorrow (it's midnight in Germany right now).
Paladins are also the consensus best class in 5e when you look at a lot of tier rankings. I agree with that consensus. The best tank (probably; vying with barbarians), top tier damage-dealer, excellent utility, and strong role-play possibilities with their high charisma.

Honestly, the true challenge for fighters isn't how they compare to wizards, IMO. Those two classes scratch very different itches. The real challenge for fighters and other melee is whether they can compete with paladins.
 



Remove ads

Top