Wizards and healing spells

[Dozen]

@Crothian , you devil
First, I must point out I like the mindscrew of it all, very much so, but it's more than a harsh lesson. He wouldn't just 'sound like a douche', he'd become a douche.

More on the main subject... I feel like you should let him. I realized over the months here that most people play D&D nothing like I do, so this decision may or may not make any sense to you, but bear with me.
Think about it this way. If the wizard( or any character) wanted to break your campaign, they would. They don't even need splashbooks or optional rules, the SRD is more than enough. If you can accept the fact, you can also realize it's either you having to ban every fifth spell in the history of 3rd ed., or just letting them do anything they want and hoping they don't ruin the game. And most importantly, telling them that.
Tell them they'd ruin your experience, your hard work. Tell them you want to enjoy the game too, how horrible it feels when they deny it to you. Tell them you're doing them a favor by not forbiding a spell or feat (because, well, you really are), and ask them not to abuse it. They don't exactly have to be rocket scientists to realize you're going out of your way. If game balance is on their soul, nice people and your friends will keep themselves at bay for you, somewhat. Takes a little weight off of your shoulders. And those who don't cooperate... well, after a certain point you'll at least know who you don't want around your table anymore.
As for the rest of the group, they are in for the campaign of their life. I won't lie, sometimes an encounter or two becomes a horrible mess before you can figure out what to do with something powerful your players stumbled upon. That's for granted. And not a bad thing. I find horrible messes hilarious to no end, for one. I don't see why you wouldn't, players love it, and why you are (or should be) DMing in the first place. But doesn't matter, you have to make an end of it either way, and you always can, because you have access to the very same broken silliness they do. You don't have to cheat or send a demigod to intervene and auto-win when you need it, because you never need it. No matter how strong a character is, as long as it's not broken, there is always a stronger one.
I understand orthodox roleplaying doesn't involve this. Maybe you don't like it. Well, there's that, ask the players to keep it serious, then. Can't figure out a way to stop the players? Ask them to stop.
Asking people nicely, after all, can do wonders.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

IMO, if players wanted to design a Wizard to cast Cure spells, I'd have them develop their PC build in such a way that included that, either with Multiclassing, feats or PrCs.

(This assumes enough access to various 3.5 books.)

For example, Heroes of Battle p.99 has the PrC Combat Medic. It's a 5 level, full casting PrC so no harm done to the developing Wizard's spell progression.

Prereqs include: Non-Evil alignment, Combat Casting & Dodge feats, Concentration 4 ranks, Heal 8 ranks, ability to cast Cure Light Wounds. One can pick up the Cure prereq with a single level dip or Arcane Disciple feat, Eberron Dragonmarks, or a number of other creative options.

The 5th level capstone of the Combat Medic PrC grants the ability to spontaneously convert any 6th level or higher spell into Heal, which is really the most practical healing spell to use in combat.

(Combat Casting and Dodge feats are likely going to feel like a waste, but the PrC also grants you d6 hp, Defensive Casting bonus, Mobility, Evasion, and progresses your Reflex saves so after the 5 levels, you've become quite a bit more sturdy as a secondary benefit.)

There are legit, RAW ways to convert a Wizard into a healer, without needing to pester the DM with houserule requests. They require some investment and sacrifice in your build to devote towards that end, and should take that degree of work to accomplish.

 

[Alzrius]

As I see it, there is no way to "mechanically" resolve this issue if you don't want to allow the PC to cast healing spells as wizard spells; ultimately, in terms of balance and mechanics, it doesn't seem like a big deal.

What's going to be more pointed are the questions of "how" and "why" magic works the way it does in your game.

Personally, I'm a big fan of this explanation (to be clear, this is a large snippet of a larger article. The sections in italics are interjections by the site's webmaster, who goes under the handle of Thoth):

I generally presume that unless the writer had a massive stroke of idiocy*, any simple, cheap, and easy way of accomplishing things has been discovered, polished, and become routine. So you aren’t going to come up with a spell that’s an absolute improvement on Magic Missile. That spell is just as good as it can be.

*That does happen. Writers all-too-often put in huge problems or challenges and then forget that they themselves put in an quick solution one page back. Or claim that something is impossible and then put in easy ways to do just that later on. But barring this, I assume people in the game worlds aren’t idiots. So we know that the Cure Light Wounds spell is about as good as it can get.

Also, note that what The Practical Enchanter says about spell design: it’s a combination of complexity AND power. People all too often ignore the Complexity because Power is obvious and flashy.

Now let’s look at the Cure Wounds series. Power-wise, those spells fit in at their given levels pretty closely. A given healing spell is usually weaker than a same-level attack spell, but they do scale with the spell level and somewhat with the caster level.

So now we know a more powerful caster does affect the spell. This may be important later.

Complexity-wise, healing is way overboard. That 1st-level spell can knit bones, restore organs, push leaked blood and fluid back where it does no harm, erase any chance of infection. If the individual is dying, it will erase all the ongoing damage to the nerves, brain and spine instantly.

This does presume relatively normal biophysics of course – but an awful lot of d20 games do indeed presume that, even though the rules do a pretty poor job of actually representing it. -Thoth

Cure Light Wounds is at LEAST at fifth-level complexity. I’d say sixth for practical purposes. With a few hundred years of development and polishing it might be possible to get the spell down to fifth level.

So why is it so cheap? Well, remember that divine spellcasters get a hidden bonus. They have a deity, and probably an entire divine staff, processing, preparing, and weaving the spells. Druids get that same edge from nature gods or local spirits or some such. Those spellcasters may be storing and casting their healing spells, but they don’t have to do all the work.

I can’t explain Bards. Bards are just weird, and they do their own thing. They’re something of a problem because it’s not clear how, exactly, they learn their own spells. Furthermore, they originally got their spells from a semi-religious force, so… Bards are just Bards.

Bards presumably get it from their attunement to the harmony of the universe or from the muses or something. I have to agree with Editorial0; Bards arcane healing spells have been a headache since third edition came out. -Thoth

Not every spell needs this level of complexity – but divine spells are notorious for having a lot of control, being especially targetable, or (at least in the old days) being frequently reversible. They traditionally offer such options a lot more often than arcane spells.

So we know the deity is handling the complex pre-arrangement of spells. They won’t do this for every spell, but healing magic is definitely a worthwhile investment. What else offers so large and obvious an aid to the faithful? And as the priest’s ability to handle power improves, he or she can channel additional healing with each Cure Wounds. The spell is already quite complex, so there’s no reason not to pour on more power once the cleric can handle the flow.

You may ask why, if the God does this for Cure Spells, they don’t for all other spells. First, the deity isn’t devoting all his (her/its/other/etc.) attention to the problems of every priest. There’s only so much power available even to d20 god, and there’s only so many things which can really benefit from it. Some other spells do benefit, just not as much. And of course, all the extra work takes out some of the brute force.

Not to mention that Healing spells are about the most generically useful spells in existence, and are pretty vital for maintaining your congregation in a d20 universe. -Thoth.

In any case, Arcane spellcasters get none of this benefit – or its costs. They get all the raw power they can handle, but nobody’s helping them cast complex spells. And if you somehow manage to gather a large group of people channeling energy to you, servant spirits taking care of trivial spell effects you’re not interested in, and remove yourself to the Astral or Outer Planes, then you’ve already become a deity in DnD terms.

Mere mortal beings must live with their limitations. A single Cure Light Wounds spell might be worth spending a single fifth level slot on for a wizard on rare occasions, but usually they’re far better off with a potion or a magic item and using the spell slot to stop your enemies, evade traps, or avoid damage. Arcane spellcasters who get to that level aren’t likely to waste a lot of time studying really weak magical effects, or bothering to make scrolls and hand them down. They have better things to do.

That doesn’t mean you can’t do healing effects. You can. It’s just a lot more trouble than its worth. Do you really want to give up 5th-level spell slot for a Cure Light?

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Are there wizard spells that use positive energy? By my count, there are very few, and the ones I can see that use positive energy specifically use it to harm undead.

An argument can then be made that wizards do not have the ability to use positive energy in a way that heals living things.

AR

 

[Dozen]

Are there wizard spells that use positive energy? By my count, there are very few, and the ones I can see that use positive energy specifically use it to harm undead.

An argument can then be made that wizards do not have the ability to use positive energy in a way that heals living things.

AR

Healing Touch and Bestow Wounds. Though they don't draw the energy from a plane like cure spells. The former uses the caster's and the latter takes from another.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Healing Touch and Bestow Wounds. Though they don't draw the energy from a plane like cure spells. The former uses the caster's and the latter takes from another.

Indeed these spells heal by transferring wounds from one creature to another, but make no mention of positive energy.

AR

 

[Dozen]

Indeed these spells heal by transferring wounds from one creature to another but make no mention of positive energy.

Healing Touch does, actually. The 'life essence' mentioned in the description is life energy, which, given the caster is a living creature, should be Positive(IIRC, the PEP's entry in the Manual of The Planes should provide sufficient evidence to support this argument). I only assume Bestow Wounds utilizes the same or at least a similar method, but literally transferring wounds from your body to the target's sounds excessive for a first level spell.

 

[Greenfield]

There may be/is a procedure, a formula if you will, for researching new or alternative spells.

That doesn't mean that any spell at all can be researched that way. The DM is not and never should be slave to a formula in the rules.

If they were then everyone would have their True Strike glove, use activated/continuous effect. After all, it's only 8,000 gp (1st level spell x 1st level caster x 2000 for Use Activated, quadrupled for constant effect.)

So just say no. You don't need to be mean about it, but neither do you have to justify your decision, or defend it to the player's satisfaction. You are the only person who needs to be satisfied with it, and the fact that you're even asking the question says that "no" is the only answer that will satisfy you.

So how do you tell this to the player?

Well, the "N" sound is formed by placing the tongue on the roof of the mouth...

 

[Walker N. Waistz]

I still think the guy who said arcane heal spells should be approximately 2 or so levels higher than their cleric equivalents has the best solution.

That'll scare off any min/max type wizards real quick. Unless they'd rather cast Cure Light than Fireball.

 

[Dozen]

I still think the guy who said arcane heal spells should be approximately 2 or so levels higher than their cleric equivalents has the best solution.

Agreed.

That'll scare off any min/max type wizards real quick. Unless they'd rather cast Cure Light than Fireball.

There are people who cast Fireball at your place? I envy the simplicity of your existence.