D&D General Worlds of Design: A Question of Balance

Some people think that every character class must be equally balanced with every other class, but why is that necessary? Are they competing with the other players in a co-operative game?

Some people think that every character class must be equally balanced with every other class, but why is that necessary? Are they competing with the other players in a co-operative game?
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The Destination or the Journey?

When approaching a discussion of class balance, it's worth asking the question: is an RPG session a destination or a journey? Or to put it another way, is an RPG session "mental gymnastics" or an "adventure"? I think the latter in both cases. Consequently, shouldn't character classes be about different ways to succeed, not about "power" (or whatever it is that has to be "equal" between each character)?

The concept of asymmetry--different starting capabilities and assets on each side--is very important in some kinds of games, like historical strategy games. It's hard to sensibly reproduce history symmetrically, in which all players start at the same level of power; for an example of how this is handled in a board game, see Risk. There's good reason for this. One of the easiest ways to achieve "balance" in a game is to make it symmetric, with everyone beginning "the same."

The need for symmetric play has spilled over in video game design, with all classes being balanced against each other, even in single-player. That style of game development has influenced modern tabletop games for similar reasons: keeping all players equal smooths out the game's design. But I think something is lost in forcing symmetric design in a tabletop role-playing game.

What's Class Balance, Anyway?

The first problem is that "class balance" is a fungible metric. Presumably, all classes are "equally powerful" but what does that mean, really? If play is all about the individual, the game turns into a competition between players to see who can show off the most. For games where personal power is important, this can make sense--but I don't find it conducive to the fundamentals of teamwork Dungeons & Dragons was built on. If D&D is about cooperation, flattening out every character's power implies that they're in competition with each other.

When the game is about the success of the group as a whole, about co-operation, then there may be compensations for playing a less powerful class. In fact, some of the classes by their very nature are inherently unbalanced for a reason. Jonathan Tweet's most recent article about The Unbalanced Cleric is a perfect example. And there are opportunities for creativity in how your "less powerful" character copes with adventuring.

Variety is the Spice of Life

There's also something to be said for the variety that comes from characters of differing capabilities. It doesn't matter to me if some characters are more powerful than others, whether it's because of class, or items owned, or something else. Different characters with different power levels creates a form of interesting play.

Here's a real life analogy: The soccer striker who scores a lot versus one who makes many chances/assists and helps the team maintain possession. But in a profession where it's so hard to score, the one who scores a lot will usually be regarded as a better player ("more powerful"), or at least the one who is paid more. Yet both are equally valuable to the team. And offensive players tend to be more highly regarded than defensive players.

Magic is Not Balanced

Then there's the issue of magic. In earlier versions of D&D, magic-users did much more damage than anyone else thanks to area effect spells (I tracked this once with the aid of a program I wrote for a Radio Shack Model 100!). In a fantasy, doesn't it make sense for the magic users to be the most powerful characters? Heroes in novels, who often don't wield magic, are exceptions in many ways: without a lot of luck, they would never succeed.

Designers can avoid the "problem" of character class balance by using skill-based rules rather than rules with character classes. You can let players differentiate themselves from others by the skills they choose, without "unbalancing" them. And shouldn't each character feel different? There are certainly archetypes that character classes often follow, yet those archetypes exist for reasons other than "play balance!"

Still, won't magic use dominate? A GM/game designer can do things to mitigate the power of magic. For example. magic can be dangerous to use, and the world can be one of low rather than high magic, e.g. like Middle-earth more than like The Wheel of Time.

The Value of Combined Arms

In the only RPG I've designed--which is intended for use with a board game, so that simplicity is paramount--I use a classless system. But for a bigger game such as D&D, multiple classes help provide both differentiation and opportunities for cooperation ("combined arms"). And I enjoy devising new character classes. Whether you need a dozen or more classes is open to question, however. Nor do they need to be "equal."
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
I guess that by "bespoke" I meant that I don't work very far ahead of where the parties are. Also, both the campaigns I'm running are more story-based, I guess, in that there are things the parties are working toward, which are either connected to the PCs' backstories or stuff that has emerged over the course of events. I probably run a less-lethal game than you (though not non-lethal), which may be part of the reason I'm willing to center a story thread around one character (at least more than the others). I also have consistent players, who are also running one character each, so I have that easier than you.
 

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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Which means chess must be crap 1/2 the time, whenever it's not your move?

It's balanced all the time.

Just get away from the expectation/entitlement that says your PC has to be involved in everything at every moment. There's times when you'll be on the ice, and times when you'll be on the bench catching a breather, but in the end you'll get just as much ice time as everyone else.

Given that the CR players are knowingly and intentionally putting on a show, I don't take much of what they do as being all that reflective of what happens around a typical home table.

In part, yes. I'm there to be entertained by the DM and-or other players, and to entertain them in return.

For the most part, I agree. Not everyone needs to be involved in everything going on at the table. I do think, however, that everyone needs to be given real opportunities to be involved in some way every game session. We meet once a week for our games and if a player is side-lined the whole session with virtually nothing they can do about it, that's a poor use of their time. If they specifically pass on that opportunity because they prefer to sit back, then that's OK.

I also do feel that there are some times in which a particular PC isn't going to be as useful as another. It happens if characters aren't all the same and the players have varying choices on what to build. And I agree with you that there are times in which that player who isn't at their most optimal has to take responsibility to be useful. A 3e rogue in a plant-heavy, trapless dungeon can still use their stealthy skills to scout around. But as DM, an even better idea might be to use the sneak attack rules in PF rather than 3e. PF stripped a lot of sneak attack immunity because of experiences gained in 3e play and I recognize they made a better design choice from a game play perspective without losing too much of the base game's character.
 

Hussar

Legend
Which means chess must be crap 1/2 the time, whenever it's not your move?

Oh, is your D&D game competitive? That's interesting.

It's balanced all the time.

Yup, it's a competitive game WHERE EVERY PLAYER GETS EQUAL TIME.

Just get away from the expectation/entitlement that says your PC has to be involved in everything at every moment. There's times when you'll be on the ice, and times when you'll be on the bench catching a breather, but in the end you'll get just as much ice time as everyone else.

Again, missing my point. I totally agree that there will be times, in the game, when my character is not in the spotlight and that's fine. What isn't fine is when the mechanics of the game say, "Sorry, you get to ride the pines 2/3rds of the time" regardless of whatever is occuring in the game.

Given that the CR players are knowingly and intentionally putting on a show, I don't take much of what they do as being all that reflective of what happens around a typical home table.

You brought it up though. If you didn't think it was relevant, why did you bring it up?

In part, yes. I'm there to be entertained by the DM and-or other players, and to entertain them in return.

And to me the example of the 3e Rogue is simply an accepted fact of life in the game; in some situations there's just not going to be much you can do. My usual go-to example for this is a 1e Illusionist in an adventure against lots of mindless undead.

And in these cases it's on the DM to present a variety of adventures (something that isn't really pointed at much in any DMG but IMO should be, for more reasons than just this) and as far as possible avoid sticking to a particular theme; e.g. if you're running an undead-based dungeon crawl this time, try to make the next adventure something in the wilderness provided they bite the hooks.

Well, if I'm starting a campaign my own assumption as DM is that it'll last as long as people want to play in it; and as the three I've started that got past their first three sessions have each lasted for over a decade I'm not too worried about campaign longevity issues. :)

Again, that's fantastic. Us mere mortals however don't typically have that option. Which means, for everyone that isn't you, balance over time sucks.

Me, I'd rather play a game where every character can contribute in every situation. So, if we're in the undead dungeon, that rogue can still contribute and doesn't have to sit and be an observer for the next 10-15 HOURS of play time just so that he can actually get to play the game for the next 10-15 hours. That's not balance, that's garbage gaming.

I mean, what is being gained by mechanically sidelining a character? How is the game more fun if Bob gets to ride the pines for the next 10 hours rather than simply unbending the stick just a touch and allowing rogues to sneak attack undead (as an example)? That's what truly confuses me in these discussions. How is it a good thing to EVER mechanically sideline a player? Sidelined because of the events in the game? Well, ok, that's groovy, that is unavoidable. Sidelined because some game designer thinks that undead should be immune to illusions because of some misplaced sense of believability? Bugger that.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Other than maybe 4e, the games you cite are all more or less player-driven - which is fine if you've got players who are willing to drive and thus push the DM to the side a bit.
I actually don't--my players can be frustratingly passive. It's an issue...mostly for me, ironically. The players are having a blast. I'm frustrated, 'cause I feel like I dangle interesting, relevant plot threads, opportunities, and intrigue and it...doesn't get investigated until I force the issue. We're working on it.

Where I to some extent put this back onto the Rogue's player for not finding ways to contribute even though the situation wasn't ideal.
Why is it the Rogue's fault that (as Hussar noted above) undead and plants aren't subject to Sneak Attack, and thus the awesome Shadow Druid dungeon I've put together will completely shut them down through no fault of their own? (And, as a related issue, why is it that it's always a specific type of preference that gets shunted into the "well YOU have to be creative just to make sure you justify your presence. The people who don't have this preference just benefit from being creative; the game automatically justifies their presence." Isn't that a mean thing to enforce on people?)

Which tells me a few things at first glance:

--- that in order to be so adaptable to any challenge the PCs' abilities must have a large amount of overlap (so bang go niche protection and interdependence and thus the main reason for forming a party in the first place);
Uh...no? 4e absolutely has a reasonable amount of niche protection, and is by far the most overtly team-oriented D&D made since WotC took up the game, and possibly earlier. (I have argued elsewhere that, at least in 3e and to some extent 2e, playing D&D was not a teamwork game, but rather a game of 4-6 people who happen to be adventuring in the same place at the same time. It was painfully true in every version of 3e, and my experience has shown it remains true in 5e, albeit to a slightly lesser extent.) Picking up a second full-time role in 4e is not trivial--it's not impossible either, to be sure. But taking (say) a non-Leader and building it to do even most of what a Leader does requires investment, usually by way of taking features from a Leader class (e.g. a multiclass feat at least). What a well-balanced game does is making sure that, whichever niche you pick, that niche has something to contribute to every essential experience.

4e's combat roles are an obvious example, but its skills are another. 4e has a short list of broadly-applicable skills, which individual player characters can (usually) only access a small subset of. If you want to succeed at skill challenges, you need a relatively diverse set of trained skills in the party, and bringing a mix of classes is exactly how one does that--the game furnishes interesting and appropriate opportunities (skill challenges), for which PC abilities (trained skills) interlock both with those opportunities and with one another's abilities, unless the players specifically choose to avoid the advice that a group be made that covers a diversity of options. (Frex, a "Radiant Mafia," which usually means an all/almost all Divine party, and thus an overemphasis on Religion and Insight and a weakness with more skullduggery type skills like Bluff, Streetwise, Thievery, and Stealth.)

For a completely different example, Dungeon World's classes are all very different (with one very specific exception: all the baseline "divine" classes use the Cleric's spellcasting mechanic if they opt into it, only Clerics get it by default) and feature major, defining elements baked into each of them that produces a very different experience. Yet these baked-in elements also give every player something to contribute. Fighters are actually GREAT for exploration, particularly urban exploration, because of their Bend Bars, Lift Gates move (essentially: feats of strength to overcome environmental obstacles, but potentially with down-the-line consequences). Paladins are great for nearly any challenge, as they have the Quest move; it lets them set a Quest for themselves, granting divine boons while they pursue that quest, but also inducing divine vows (like "don't use underhanded tactics" or "always give aid to those in need"), and these divine boons can be ENORMOUSLY helpful if chosen carefully (examples include "immunity to <type> damage" e.g. fire or slashing, "an unerring sense of direction toward <target>," "senses that pierce lies," etc.) Clerics and Wizards have their spells they can prepare, of course. Druids aren't natively spellcasters, but their shapeshifting is hugely diverse. Etc. Dungeon World emphatically does not have samey classes a lack of "niche protection and interdependence."

--- that it's made much more difficult to specifically and intentionally challenge the abilities of just one PC or class (not that this comes up often but it's nice to have in the toolbox);
What? Why on earth would that be the case? I must be misunderstanding what you mean here.

--- and that a party can competently take on any challenge regardless of its class-race composition (thus making party composition almost irrelevant to the run of play).
Nope! I honestly have no idea how you got to that given I've been talking about 4e. 4e tells you what is expected, and offers a wide variety of options for what to pick to meet that--this is something that has been understood since time immemorial, hence the "alright, who's gonna play our Brother Bactine healbot AHEM cleric?" problem that 3e tried to solve by making Clerics ridiculously powerful so people would want to play one (and then with the whole "optimize your personal performance" thing, this quickly became "why ever play a Fighter when you could be a Cleric???")

All of these to me would be bugs in the design rather than features.
I completely agree that completely equivalent classes, inability to highlight particular character focus, and/or "do whatever, it never matters" would be problems. Literally none of that is true of any of the games I described. The 4e Sorcerer is balanced with the 4e Rogue, but the two do different things, and the party will play and feel and (perhaps most importantly) achieve differently if it has the former vs. the latter. A 4e party that has {[Defender class], [Leader class], [Striker class], and [Controller class]} is essentially guaranteed to be competent unless the players actively ignore the fundamental class advice (e.g. dumping Intelligence as a Wizard), regardless of what choices the party made for each of those things. But the experience of their success, and more importantly the direction of their success, will differ greatly between {Fighter, Warlord, Ranger, Druid} and {Paladin, Shaman, Rogue, Wizard}, even though both parties are well-equipped for a fairly diverse field of challenges, both combat and non-combat (the former leans more into exploration, hunting, and survival; the latter leans more into intrigue and magic).
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
4e absolutely has a reasonable amount of niche protection, and is by far the most overtly team-oriented D&D made since WotC took up the game, and possibly earlier.
One interesting thing 4e did was in teasing out Role and Source from Class (then, y'know, putting them back, which, well, whatever)

Point being that prior to 4e, you had the Big 4 classes - Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Magic-User - that both represented what you did for the party - Tank, Heal/Turn, Traps/Sneak, Anything - and how you did it - Hit it With a Big Stick, Divine Intervention, Mad Skillz, Maaaagic.

By 3e, the Thief was the Rogue and contributed some spikey damage via SA, as well as being the trapfinder, but aside from that progress, it was status quo.

4e broke those contributions up and formalized then into roles - Defender, Leader, Striker, and Controller.
And also uncoupled them from the concept how you made those contributions, which became Source - Martial, Divine and Arcane.
Thus if the party stereotypically "needed a Cleric" but you didn't want to play some pious glowy guy, you could play a Warlord, instead - or later, a Bard, Artificer, Shaman, or even Ardent.

But, y'know, it wasn't really niche protection, it was role support. That is, there wasn't one kind of contribution that only a given class (or even Role) could provide, that no on else could, at all. Rather, there were features each class had that made them particularly good at a given Role (and often able to fill in with a second role, a bit).
Subtle distinction, I suppose.
 

Hussar

Legend
Is balance between the characters important? Well, that's easy to demonstrate.

Let's do a little thought experiment. We'll play a D&D campaign together. It's a @Lanefan game, so, it's going to last ten years. At the start of the campaign, I'm 21st level and everyone else is 1st level. We houserule that my character gains levels at the same rate as the rest of the group - so, when everyone else is 2nd level, I'm not 22nd level and so on.

If balance doesn't matter, that would be a fun game.

However, let's be honest, that game would suck.

So, once we accept that balance matters, now it's just a question of degree. How much balance is the right amount to make folks happy most of the time?

All we're doing is arguing degree.
 

Lylandra

Adventurer
I mean, what is being gained by mechanically sidelining a character? How is the game more fun if Bob gets to ride the pines for the next 10 hours rather than simply unbending the stick just a touch and allowing rogues to sneak attack undead (as an example)? That's what truly confuses me in these discussions. How is it a good thing to EVER mechanically sideline a player? Sidelined because of the events in the game? Well, ok, that's groovy, that is unavoidable. Sidelined because some game designer thinks that undead should be immune to illusions because of some misplaced sense of believability? Bugger that.

As a small nitpick, I did find some of the standard D&D offenders vs. rogues/precision damage and illusions/charms to be illogical. PF addressed some of it - making undead sneak-able for example - but kept the illusion/charm part.

Which is fine for undead who use other senses than sight (but again, there are illusions that include thermal/smell/tremor/audio), or golems, which are immune to all magic. But I do not get why an intelligent vampire, lich or even ghost should be immune to stuff effecting their minds. They got a mind, so why should it not be effectable?

Also, totally agree. Getting the really short end of the stick for more than two sessions would make me debate the GM. Because I don't want to spend 10 hours doing nothing of value. It is still my valuable free time you're talking about.

(Now a really good GM who doesn't want to houserule would still find ways to include an illusionist in an automaton adventure... but then again, the game designers shouldn't rely on good GMs.)
 

I actually don't--my players can be frustratingly passive. It's an issue...mostly for me, ironically. The players are having a blast. I'm frustrated, 'cause I feel like I dangle interesting, relevant plot threads, opportunities, and intrigue and it...doesn't get investigated until I force the issue. We're working on it.
That’s what happened to me too and ultimately the solution was to let go of my passive players and to write novels instead. Now I have active readers 😅
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
That’s what happened to me too and ultimately the solution was to let go of my passive players and to write novels instead. Now I have active readers 😅
Given three of my players are my three closest friends (to the point that I spend almost all of my social time with one or more of them), and the fourth is a roommate of one of the others? Yeah, no, not gonna happen.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
As a small nitpick, I did find some of the standard D&D offenders vs. rogues/precision damage and illusions/charms to be illogical. PF addressed some of it - making undead sneak-able for example - but kept the illusion/charm part.

Logic here is one of those things that depends an awful lot on your initial assumptions. If you take something like a sneak attack or other precision damage to involve damage to vital systems or shock, then it makes sense for undead, plants, elementals, and constructs to not be affected. But you can adjust your assumptions to include things like vulnerable body structures and not just vitals.

With respect to mind-affecting effects, same thing. If you assume those things need a live mind to affect, then undead should be immune even if intelligent and free-willed. It might also come from a niche protection assumption - that necromancy should be appropriate magic for controlling undead rather than magic used to control living beings.
 

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