Dragonlance WotC Officially Confirms Takhisis and Tiamat Are The Same

It's been an issue in dispute for decades, over various editions of D&D, but WotC has officially confirmed that - at least in 5E - Dragonlance's Takhisis is, indeed, currently Tiamat. In previous editions, Tiamat has varied from being a big dragon to a minor goddess, while Takhisis has been a greater god on Krynn. At times they've been the same entity, and at others different entities. Today, WotC is putting its foot down and saying that Takhisis and Tiamat are, indeed, the same being.



Of course, this is not an opinion universally held. Dragonlance co-creator Margaret Weis emphatically stated that "TAKHISIS IS NOT TIAMAT, DAMN IT!"

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Fizban's Treasuryof Dragons confirms that the beings echo across various settings.

 
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That's a quaint way of putting things, but... While Takhisis and Paladine are based on Tiamat and Bahamut, respectively, (or at least on their unnamed original incarnations in OD&D), the lore was different (at the time of DL's inception, there was very little lore on Tiamat and Bahamut—a lot of what we have came later) and abilities do differ (different statblocks, greater deity vs. lesser deity, etc.), and effort was made to made them distinct and grander. DL also assumed a different (if minimally explained) cosmology than the Great Wheel.

So, this retoconning (that apparently started with 1e's Manual of the Planes) to them being the same entity probably feels irritating after all the lore and effort the original DL team put into making them distinct.
Frankly, the power-level difference never mattered to me; they're gods. That said, in 4e, Bahamut and Tiamat are both essentially "greater" deities by the usual classification. By which I mean, 4e doesn't make this distinction. There are gods--male and female, as "goddess" was considered an unnecessary relic of gender-enforced terminology--and there are beings that are less than gods but still divine, such as exarchs and angels. Further, in general, Bahamut and Tiamat have been gaining power over time, and I would argue no small part of that is the depiction of the pantheon-leading five-headed color-coded Evil Queen of Dragons and Tyranny and the one-headed platinum-scaled Good King of Dragons and Heroes as seen in Dragonlance. In which case, one could argue that the comparison would be better phrased as, "Tiamat is Takhisis." It's just that Tiamat's name is more widely-known, because (as noted below) it's more widely used, mostly due to being in the public domain.

Couldn't give two figs about the Great Wheel cosmology. More importantly, it's clear Bahamut and Tiamat don't either. They're actively part of the Great Wheel, the World Tree, Dragonlance, Eberron (though at a distance removed, as with all gods in that setting), the World Axis (as noted above), and others as well. Same for Tiamat. The siblings are no provincial backwater gods, they're all over the place.

Your statements about "all the lore and effort that went into making them distinct" sound like someone trying to cleave apart "well sure, aesthetically, philosophically, and behaviorally they're identical, but in this cosmology there's a whole bunch of history that isn't relevant in any of the others." And I grant that. That doesn't stop them from being multiple incarnations of the same fundamental core. To be clear, I like having multiple incarnations of a common core. I think that's really cool. As I said, I have my own names for slight variations on them (and Io) meant to serve as publishable names in the unlikely event that I ever actually did publish (better to have, and get comfortable, with non-infringing names now so that there can't be any reluctance in ten years when theoretical future me is looking for a publisher.)

Ultimately, it just feels like a really weird insistence that no, Takhisis ABSOLUTELY CAN'T "just" be Tiamat. She ABSOLUTELY MUST be an Original Character Do Not Steal. The sentiment is silly. There is no shame in Takhisis being Tiamat (or Tiamat being Takhisis, if you prefer that ordering.) If anything, it proves that for all the flak Dragonlance takes for enforcing railroading on the game and overwrought plots etc. etc., it has an unambiguous and enduring legacy: Dragons, dragon gods, dragon people, etc. all grew specifically because Dragonlance left a permanent, positive mark on the growth of D&D.
 

kerleth

Explorer
Ultimately, it just feels like a really weird insistence that no, Takhisis ABSOLUTELY CAN'T "just" be Tiamat. She ABSOLUTELY MUST be an Original Character Do Not Steal. The sentiment is silly.
Not who you were responding to and I honestly don't feel strongly about the subject. However, I have to say that is not my interpretation of the reaction. First, from what I recall the characters are actually pretty different. Tiamat is basically can't believe it's not hydra Godzilla while Takhisis is a scheming overlord. Sure, they are both shaped the same. But the actual character portrayal is significantly different from my experience. Saying that's just different "history" is like saying two twins who look the same but lead completely different lives are really the same person, the different "history" isn't important. But it's entirely possible that is just due to my limited knowledge.

No the thing that I think is really wrong about this is the specific sentiment quoted above. It seems less to me that people are upset because Takhisis ABSOLUTELY CAN'T "just" be Tiamat. She ABSOLUTELY MUST be an Original Character Do Not Steal. Instead they are annoyed that WOTC is saying Takhisis ABSOLUTELY MUST "be" Tiamat. She ABSOLUTELY CAN'T be an Original Character, There Can Be Only One. There is a world of difference between insisting that one thing must be, and disagreeing with someone else insisting one thing must be. The fact those are very different takes doesn't change whether it's fans, creators, corporations, or acid fueled talking spider trees.

Obviously, multiple people have different viewpoints, but that is mostly the vibe I've gotten. Disclaimer that I haven't done in depth research on it. But I have noticed in this thread alone a trend to exaggerate and mock people who are basically just saying "this is unnecessary, stop trying to enforce an ill thought out all encompassing canon on everything, it works better leaving all that alone". The Original Character Do Not steal thing above is an example. It's very clearly a reference to overdramatic fanfiction divas. People like to say don't yuck somebody else's yum. And it's a very good point. But it's also bad to try to force your yum on somebody else's who thinks it's yucky.
 

dave2008

Legend
FYI, I have a draft of Takhisis up for review and comment. I still need to check the CR and do some tweaking, but would love to get some input!

Here you go: Takhisis, the Dragon Queen

PS - this based on the LevelUp (A5e) format which has the Elite trait in place of the mythic trait and it has the bloodied condition and standard maneuver DCs. Just thought I would point that out if you were wondering why there is some odd formatting. All spell hyper links go back to the relevant LevelUp A5e tools page as well.
 

darjr

I crit!
@kerleth well in isolation, maybe.

But all the vitriol being heaped on from Dragonlance “fans” about the art or “wildness” or their misinformed knowledge of the setting, paints an ugly picture. It’s sad.

@dave2008, fyi i significantly edited this from when you liked it.
 
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Not who you were responding to and I honestly don't feel strongly about the subject. However, I have to say that is not my interpretation of the reaction. First, from what I recall the characters are actually pretty different. Tiamat is basically can't believe it's not hydra Godzilla while Takhisis is a scheming overlord. Sure, they are both shaped the same. But the actual character portrayal is significantly different from my experience. Saying that's just different "history" is like saying two twins who look the same but lead completely different lives are really the same person, the different "history" isn't important. But it's entirely possible that is just due to my limited knowledge.

No the thing that I think is really wrong about this is the specific sentiment quoted above. It seems less to me that people are upset because Takhisis ABSOLUTELY CAN'T "just" be Tiamat. She ABSOLUTELY MUST be an Original Character Do Not Steal. Instead they are annoyed that WOTC is saying Takhisis ABSOLUTELY MUST "be" Tiamat. She ABSOLUTELY CAN'T be an Original Character, There Can Be Only One. There is a world of difference between insisting that one thing must be, and disagreeing with someone else insisting one thing must be. The fact those are very different takes doesn't change whether it's fans, creators, corporations, or acid fueled talking spider trees.

Obviously, multiple people have different viewpoints, but that is mostly the vibe I've gotten. Disclaimer that I haven't done in depth research on it. But I have noticed in this thread alone a trend to exaggerate and mock people who are basically just saying "this is unnecessary, stop trying to enforce an ill thought out all encompassing canon on everything, it works better leaving all that alone". The Original Character Do Not steal thing above is an example. It's very clearly a reference to overdramatic fanfiction divas. People like to say don't yuck somebody else's yum. And it's a very good point. But it's also bad to try to force your yum on somebody else's who thinks it's yucky.
I mean, that's all fair.

But it's more than a little frustrating to have my seemingly-justified comparison (looking at their physical appearance, overall personality, behavior, interests, spheres of divine influence, etc.) dismissed as apparently "quaint." I get that they've gotten up to different things, but I haven't seen anything that suggests that Tiamat is "just" Fantasy Godzilla. Indeed, I've always thought of her more as an incredibly dangerous antagonist, somewhere between the characters Hexadecimal and Megabyte: she can verge on the shrieking insanity of Hex, but generally acts more like the incredibly dangerous schemer.

I will admit, part of the reason I feel this way is 4e. In 4e, Bahamut and Tiamat were full-on proper deities (equivalent to Moradin, Pelor, Sehanine, Torog, etc.), and the background history regarding Arkhosia (one of my favorite bits of D&D lore) specifically reflects her power and her subversiveness. Despite the empire being explicitly dedicated to Bahamut, with special reverence also paid to the trio of (notably Unaligned!) supporting deities Erathis (civilization and law), Ioun (knowledge and skills), and Kord (storms and strength), and Tiamat worship being outright illegal, her temples continued to exist as subversive cults across the Empire, and in its final century or two they were rampant, sometimes even to the point that worship occurred almost openly.

That's not the kind of thing that Godzilla does. That's the kind of thing a conniving, and more importantly patient, adversary does when faced with overwhelming force. Don't fling yourself at the enemy's shield. Wait until their arm gets tired.

Edit: Further...it's not like I'm being demeaning here. I literally pointed out how this actually demonstrates that Dragonlance, for all the crap people fling at it, has permanently changed the lore of D&D as a whole. That recognizing the deep (but not totally all-encompassing) connection between Tiamat and Takhisis is, in a very meaningful sense, showing how Dragonlance has asserted its own canon over what came before. So it's frustrating to be simultaneously told not to give flippant responses that ignore important context in a way that is kind of flippant and ignores important context.
 
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5E's also been inconsistent on what Tiamat's alignment is, with some statblocks labeling her as Lawful Evil and others as Chaotic Evil. Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes even states she is a force of Chaos bound in a plane of Law.

I think it's simplest just to say that Tiamat and Takhisis are both aspects of the originally-featured Chromatic Dragon that effectively developed into different yet related entities. Maybe the Chromatic Dragon came first, is now gone, and Tiamat and Takhisis are essentially twins?

EDIT: "Canon" in general is basically just Calvinball where what is the truth one day can be retconned the next by whoever has the authority to do so. For example, fhe Sonic the Hedgehog franchise in the last decade or so has went from "the setting is Earth" to "the setting of a game is either Earth or 'Sonic's World'', with humans only existing in the former, and there are also two dimensions where different games and sets of characters are canon" to "the setting is Earth and every game is canon, and also the newest comic series maybe".
 
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delericho

Legend
Couldn't give two figs about the Great Wheel cosmology. More importantly, it's clear Bahamut and Tiamat don't either. They're actively part of the Great Wheel, the World Tree, Dragonlance, Eberron (though at a distance removed, as with all gods in that setting)...
Possibly worth noting that Tiamat actually isn't a deity in Eberron - she's a fiendish overlord similar to the Lords of Dust. That may be a detail, but the difference is that in Eberron the existence of the gods is a matter of faith; the existence of Tiamat is a matter of fact.
 

wellis

Explorer
Possibly worth noting that Tiamat actually isn't a deity in Eberron - she's a fiendish overlord similar to the Lords of Dust. That may be a detail, but the difference is that in Eberron the existence of the gods is a matter of faith; the existence of Tiamat is a matter of fact.
Speaking of Eberron, how does their isolated cosmology interact with the rest of the D&D multiverse?
I hear somehow they're isolated in the Astral Plane away from the rest of the Material Plane, sort of like an isolated bubble of Prime Material Plane or something?
 

Possibly worth noting that Tiamat actually isn't a deity in Eberron - she's a fiendish overlord similar to the Lords of Dust. That may be a detail, but the difference is that in Eberron the existence of the gods is a matter of faith; the existence of Tiamat is a matter of fact.
Yes, I pointed this out the previous time this argument came up and I was assured that it's the same Tiamat despite making no logical sense at all and being blatantly against the author's intent and inimical to the soul of Eberron as a setting.

Sarcastic Emma Stone GIF
 

delericho

Legend
Speaking of Eberron, how does their isolated cosmology interact with the rest of the D&D multiverse?
I hear somehow they're isolated in the Astral Plane away from the rest of the Material Plane, sort of like an isolated bubble of Prime Material Plane or something?
I don't think they've ever really defined this. There was something said about Eberron's Crystal Sphere being locked and not having any portals for entry/exit, but then the Crystal Spheres went away (apart from one, obviously), so...

(My answer to that, FWIW, is the same as my Tiamat/Takhisis answer: when I'm running Eberron, it doesn't; when I'm running FR it doesn't matter; I won't be running Planescape (not for me). I do have notions for an Eberron/Spelljammer campaign, which would follow that "closed sphere" model, but I doubt I'll ever get to run it.)
 

delericho

Legend
Yes, I pointed this out the previous time this argument came up and I was assured that it's the same Tiamat despite making no logical sense at all and being blatantly against the author's intent and inimical to the soul of Eberron as a setting.

Sarcastic Emma Stone GIF
See, this is where their "many echoes" thing really helps them:

- The echoes found in most worlds are the force of Chaos bound in the Nine Hells (a plane of Law). Because of this mismatch, she's lost an awful lot of power, and so is considered a Lesser God (or 5e equivalent). And so long has her imprisonment been that she may or may not now be considered LE.

- The echo that is Takhisis is a force of Chaos bound in the Abyss (a plane of Chaos). Consequently she has her full power, and is a Greater God (or 5e equivalent).

- The Eberron echo is completely cut off from the others, and from whatever is the source of divinity, and consequently is a very powerful fiend but not a god.

All of which would also fit neatly with their First World stuff in Fizban's, would answer the "is Takhisis Tiamat" question with a resounding "sort of", while leaving useful ambiguities for later world building. So of course they haven't gone that way. :)
 

grimslade

Krampus ate my d20s
Ultimately, what does it matter if Takhisis is Tiamat? What is the impact on a Dragonlance campaign with this knowledge? Takhisis is presented as Takhisis in the new book. If anything Tiamat has become more like Takhisis over the years, so is it a distinction without a difference? I am legitimately asking because my last DL read was almost 30 years ago.
 

Dire Bare

Legend
Ultimately, what does it matter if Takhisis is Tiamat? What is the impact on a Dragonlance campaign with this knowledge? Takhisis is presented as Takhisis in the new book. If anything Tiamat has become more like Takhisis over the years, so is it a distinction without a difference? I am legitimately asking because my last DL read was almost 30 years ago.
IT'S IMPORTANT!!!

Because . . . . . um, well . . . .

IT'S IMPORTANT!!!

More seriously, sometimes (some) fans get very particular about minor canon details that don't really impact gameplay or even really story because their love of Dragonlance goes back to their youth. Change details, and you are changing something that they feel is a part of their childhood, their identity, and this can feel threatening.
 

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