D&D 5E WotC will likely be making a dedicated Psion class, as per recent tweets

[Tony Vargas]

D&D has been self-referential since 3e.

I disagree, 2e at the very latest.


If not from the very beginning. D&D is often described as having defined it's own sub-genre of fantasy. It initially, like 0e, tried to capture archetypes from the broader genre, but, at, like one whole class per character - Ranger for Aragorn, Cleric for Van Helsig, Monk for Kwai Chang Caine - and when that clearly was never going to work, just hunkered down and worked with what it had from Men & Magic through Eldritch Wizardry.

3e was probably the first edition that wasn't entirely self-referent, and occasionally tried something new. 4e, of course, not even Essentials, just the first 2 years of 4e, was the last.

 

[generic]

I disagree, 2e at the very latest.

Really? I would draw the line at 1e, I daresay OD&D is the only true edition.

 

[dave2008]

You said you disagree with my statement about lack of support for different playing styles. How so? (with examples, if possible).

OK, I am going to try to keep this as brief as possible and I can add more later if needed. First the problem with this discussion is that I don't know what "style of play" you think 5e supports by RAW / RAI. I see or hear about people playing just with WotC material that play very differently. So I will just pick a few styles and run with it:

High-fantasy / high-magic/ dungeon delve: I am going to call this the baseline, standard style. I assume you agree it supports this and will not provide any evidence otherwise.

Horror: Curse of Strahd; Sanity checks & horror (dmg pg 265-266) Combine with slow natural healing & healers kit dependency (dmg pg 266-267) for more danger. Madness (dmg pg 258-260)

Gritty: Healer's kit dependency, slow natural healing, and gritty realism rest variant (dmg pg 266-267), lingering injuries & massive damage (dmg pg 272-273)

Low-magic: go with gritty above and then restrict magic using classes to half-casters max. or ban them altogether. (lots of options in between as well). Don't hand out magic items.

Heroic: Inspiration (dmg 240), hero points, healing surges & epic heroism rest variant (dmg pg 264-267); morale (dmg pg 273)

Tactical: optional flanking & facing (dmg pg 251-252); speed factor , disarm, mark, overrun, shove aside, tumble, hitting cover, cleaving, & massive damage (dmg 270-273); classes: battlemaster, bard, rogue, and any magic using class has interesting tactical options. If the new UA on variant features is made official this will be expanded to a lot of other classes / subclasses. Feats (several existing and UA feats provide interesting tactical options).

Intrigue: Eberron, Rising from the Last War; social interaction (dmg 244-245), noncombat challenges (dmg pg 261). UA variant features would add some social oomph to fighter classes for this style.

Narrative: Plot points (dmg pg 269).

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (D&D Next Goals, Part Four)

web.archive.org

Thanks for digging out that. Turns out they’re promising even more than I could remember. And all I wanted was a psionic class that’s not a wizard by a different name. Lucky me, I guess...

 

[Sacrosanct]

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (D&D Next Goals, Part Four)

web.archive.org

So, what sorts of rules are we looking at building? The list is a little fluid, but here's what we want to focus on. It's kind of a laundry list, and there's no guarantee that everything will be ready at launch, so it's more of a wish list.

• Include tactical combat rules that allow the option to add more miniatures gaming elements to combat. This would include a grid, options for facing, rules for more detailed zones of control, and so on.
• Provide a system that emphasizes refreshing resources by encounter instead of by day. The nice thing about our approach is that since this is an option, we don't have to settle for half measures. Everything can be encounter-based, even hit points.
• Create rules for giving mechanical weight to character motivation, personality traits, and so on.
• Provide a structure for a more story-based approach to D&D, treating the DM and players as co-authors of a narrative with a specific focus.
• Use action points, fate points, or a similar meta-mechanic as a reward or a way to give players a mechanical option to boost their power for a specific moment.
• Create variant XP rules, using XP as a way for a DM to place the emphasis on fighting, interaction, exploration, finding treasure, and so on.
• Add in rules for firearms, including both a historical take and one driven by fantasy.
• Include rules for mass combat between armies, both for resolving two armies fighting and battles where the PCs can play a role.
• Design rules for speeding up battles that involve lots of monsters and the characters.
• Provide rules for sea battles.
• Create rules for realms management and strongholds.
• Design rules for finding ingredients and reagents to craft magic items.
• Provide critical hit and critical failure tables.
• Design rules for using armor as damage reduction, along with rules for hit locations.
• Introduce rules for lingering wounds, a gritty approach to health and well being.
• Include alternative magic systems.
• Provide rules for horror and sanity, along with other rules to change D&D's genre.

Pretty much everything on that list already exists. Grid based combat? Inspiration mechanic? Madness?

Remember, just because it might not have been designed how you want it, doesn’t mean it’s not there.

 

[dave2008]

Thanks for digging out that. Turns out they’re promising even more than I could remember. And all I wanted was a psionic class that’s not a wizard by a different name. Lucky me, I guess...

And they have already delivered on the vast majority of it. That is better than I expected.

 

[Tony Vargas]

OK, I am going to try to keep this as brief as possible and I can add more later if needed. First the problem with this discussion is that I don't know what "style of play" you think 5e supports by RAW / RAI

I'd say playing self-referent, really-D&D style of D&D - in the afore-mentioned self-referent D&D-sub-genre of fantasy, of course.



OK, more nearly seriously, the intended/native 'style' of 5e is DM Empowerment Style! Say it like you're calling out the 70's Kung-fu-movie style you're about to lay out a half-dozen mooks with.

(...nope...not that serious, either... I tried... honest.)

High-fantasy

Tolkien is often cited as the exemplar of high fantasy, so, suits by his estate notwithstanding, not s'much.

/ high-magic/ dungeon delve:

I am going to call this the baseline, standard style. I assume you agree it supports this and will not provide any evidence otherwise.

Sure, that's fairly succinctly 5e D&D: it's all about that magic. It'll stray outside the dungeon pretty readily, but there'll likely be one.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

OK, I am going to try to keep this as brief as possible and I can add more later if needed. First the problem with this discussion is that I don't know what "style of play" you think 5e supports by RAW / RAI. I see or hear about people playing just with WotC material that play very differently. So I will just pick a few styles and run with it:

High-fantasy / high-magic/ dungeon delve: I am going to call this the baseline, standard style. I assume you agree it supports this and will not provide any evidence otherwise.

Horror: Curse of Strahd; Sanity checks & horror (dmg pg 265-266) Combine with slow natural healing & healers kit dependency (dmg pg 266-267) for more danger. Madness (dmg pg 258-260)

I agree with 5e baseline being high magic. I believe there's space for really high/pervasive magic. I'd say they kind of deliver it with the release of Eberron. Before that, though, I don't think it got reasonable support.

For horror, I think the rules in the DMG are good enough. Still, they do not interact with Curse of Strahd, not even en passant. I've used them for my own Raveloft needs. I agree with you that 5e can do horror to a certain level.

Gritty: Healer's kit dependency, slow natural healing, and gritty realism rest variant (dmg pg 266-267), lingering injuries & massive damage (dmg pg 272-273)

Low-magic: go with gritty above and then restrict magic using classes to half-casters max. or ban them altogether. (lots of options in between as well). Don't hand out magic items.

I'd prefer gritty and low-magic to be different things. You can have one without the other, in my opinion. I agree with you that the DMG options can make gritty happen, even if they taste like half-cooked stuff.

WotC failing to deliver a warlord probably helps to make low-magic hard to implement. I don't agree that it's feasible because I can remove things. I'd want it the other way around: rules to make it happen. Thankfully, AiME is here for all my low-magic needs.

Heroic: Inspiration (dmg 240), hero points, healing surges & epic heroism rest variant (dmg pg 264-267); morale (dmg pg 273)

Tactical: optional flanking & facing (dmg pg 251-252); speed factor , disarm, mark, overrun, shove aside, tumble, hitting cover, cleaving, & massive damage (dmg 270-273); classes: battlemaster, bard, rogue, and any magic using class has interesting tactical options. If the new UA on variant features is made official this will be expanded to a lot of other classes / subclasses. Feats (several existing and UA feats provide interesting tactical options).

Intrigue: Eberron, Rising from the Last War; social interaction (dmg 244-245), noncombat challenges (dmg pg 261). UA variant features would add some social oomph to fighter classes for this style.

Narrative: Plot points (dmg pg 269).

Now, this is where I cannot follow you. Inspiration/plot points/hero points tastes so much like half-cooked stuff that it makes the gritty variant look like something coming out of the Diana Jones Awards for excellence in gaming.

The tactical rules module, including their implementation of speed factor, is a nightmare. I've yet to see a player/DM of 5e look at it and say "ok, let's try it", and I play with some seriously tactically-minded people. Then, without it, most players will just ignore the tactical layer coming from a battle master or a range of spell options and just use whatever deals more damage. At least that's what I've seen in the last 5.5 years.

But I do agree with @Sacrosanct: WotC not delivering is not the same as I feeling like what they delivered is not good enough. But I stand by my original opinion: most of those 15-20 pages in the DMG are paying lip-service to the idea of different playing styles. I can play and enjoy 5e and still believe we deserve better.

For starts, I'd like their storylines to at least remember those 15-20 pages exist. This could be done by inviting the DM to use that stuff to improve the core experience - at least as an option; it doesn't need to be the base assumption (the lack of proper integration between CoS and the horror module being the biggest offender, in my opinion). What's the point of honor and sanity if BG: DiA cannot even remember they exist?

New storylines could be used to build upon those rules, as needed. I said most of the variants in the DMG taste like half-cooked food. You don't need more than 1-3 pages in a 256-page supplement to change that, maybe with the exception of the "tactical rules module". You'd probably need something as comprehensive as 2e's Players Options: Combat and Tactics to develop 5e into a tactically interesting RPG.

 

[Xeviat]

At-will powers enhanced by power point options. Similar to 4e's system. 6 subclasses - kineticist, telepath, etc from 3e. The 3e disciplines define options within the class. Power points recover on a short rest. That's a differentiating element similar to 2e's recovery rate.

I am super inspired by this. 5E has had a need for a 3E Warlock style class, one with mostly at-will magic. Psion would be a good place for it.

 

[Arnwolf666]

This is why I keep coming back to the idea that know one will be truly happy with the psion class. They might as well make a sorcerer, monk, and warlock version.
I am personally curious about the one suggested that was at will powers modified by spell points. Just make lots of psion classes at let players and DM’s pick what suits their style.