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[jdavis]

Endure: Dude, How can you make any ratioanl arguamet about how Dwarven defender is or isn't good when you "CONSISTENTLY" take on EL's 3-4 levels higher than typical.

Sheesh!

Newsflash: to a L3 party, a Troll is horrifying!

Everything my party fights is 3 to 4 levels stronger too, the EL being the same is only supposed to expend 20% of a characters resources, so those encounters really are not that tough, if you are in a dungeon fighting monster after monster then yea it could get ot be a problem, but we normally only have one or two fights a session so we use stronger challenges. If the party's average level is 12 and they go up against a CR 12 monster they are supposed to win pretty easily (and that is if there is only 4 pc's we have 6 and sometimes 7). There are times when we fight monsters with CR's of 15 or 16 and we have even taken on encounters of 18 and 19 CR but those were the only fight in the session, it makes for a single long challenging fight instead of a bunch of encounters.

2 Trolls were a decent fight for our party of 5 pc's at 3rd level and we had no magic user and no cleric (we had a paladin instead of a cleric, his healing was all that helpful). It was a very good fight.

 

[incognito]

jdavis: Err...how did you keep the Trolls dead?

(IMO, those trolls shoulve wrecked you guys). 2 hits and a rend is -10 hp, game over for even a L3 fighter.

 

[jdavis]

We came prepared to keep them dead, we were hunting them (of course we hunted them into the ambush they set). Like I said it was a pretty good fight. The first Troll came over a hill in front of us and the fighters ran forward (we had a fighter (4), a monk (2) a paladin(3) and two thieves(4 and 3).) My character drew his bow (elf thief) then got attacked from behind by the second troll (rend attack I was dropped down to -6 instantly, and luckily) The fighters took out the first one (two rounds of hard fighting and then a round of healing potions) while the second one chased the Halfling thief around. By that time my character was brought back up to 1 hp and the Troll got tired of trying to catch a wily halfling, then we hit him with the jugs of acid we had be given to use on them, it went down hill for the Troll from there. We got some lucky rolls (well except for me, I almost died twice, the fighter went to negative numbers once too) and we were prepared for the fight, the whole adventure was hunting down these Trolls. All our fights have always went down to the wire like that but it keeps the game fun, we also have a problem with role playing out every little thing so we normally only have time for one or two good fights in a 8 hour session.

Edit: the Paladin was a cleric 1 Paladin 2, I forgot about the level of cleric the Paladin had, he changed his mind about his character after the first adventure but didn't want to make up a new character.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Ever notice that it seems that in general DM's are more role playing oriented and players are power game oriented.

Not 100%, but often the case. As is, I'd rather DM a solo game with one Role-Play oriented Player than to share a table with a group of people whose main objective is to roll higher than me; Heck, I'd rather play Yahtzi, since I don't have to waste so much of my personal time preping for it.

 

[Wormwood]

I'd rather DM a solo game with one Role-Play oriented Player than to share a table with a group of people whose main objective is to roll higher than me;

Bah.

A true Power Gamer has enough bonuses so that he can roll *lower* than you and still win.

Winning is good.

 

[hong]

Hong: I have played, low (3-7), mid (8-12), and ultra high (18+) 3E. I know all about "options." I also know it's better to hit for d8+4, and have +12 to your will save, than hit for d8+8, and have +6 to your Will save.

In which case, you also know that giants, dragons and other high CR monsters do a helluva lot more than a pathetic d8+8 points of damage. You'll also know it's next to suicidal to stand still so that these monsters can hit you with a full attack for 100+ points. The DD's "defensive stance" ability is of marginal utility, and so are the hit points. The DR is nice, but nothing more than an equivalent-level barbarian would get.

Fast move offset by fly? What's stopping you from flying to?

Nothing. In fact, if you'd really played high-level D&D to any significant extent (not one-shots or convention games), you'd also know that it's de rigueur for any high-level character to beable to fly and teleport.

Furthermore, flying at 90' is usually considered better than walking at 40'. And if the DD is flying, then their fast movement is pretty much moot, eh?

Ambidex and TWF useless? Perhaps your familiar with the "shield expert" feat, and the +1 special ability "bashing." ther are other exmaples, but this one does nicely.

If there's a problem, it's with Shield Expert. And if the DD wants to spend yet another feat and even more moola on that second weapon, that's his decision.

AS for your comments on saves, I'd rather have Stong Fort and Will saves than strong reflex. Generally speaking, reflex saves do damage. And I can heal damage.

Within limits.

And if I am a cleric, I can cast endure elements.

Lasting one hour, and stopping 5 hit points per round, if you're a 1st level cleric. Better make sure you choose your element right, and hit the bad guy within that time limit.

Fort/Will saves are 1-shot take outs (Poly-Other, and Hold person). Tell me which you'd rather save against at L7, a 7d6 lightning bolt, or Hold Person (both L3 Wizard spells).

Hold that thought RIGHT THERE.

Bull. Our L12 part had a Dwarven Cleric with a 22 CON had 130ish hp. As a Cleric/Paladin with a 16 CON I had under 100. When the Power Word Stun went off he was affected for 2 rounds, while I was out for 6.

Exactly. Isn't it great how it doesn't matter how many hit points you have, you're still out of the game for at least 2 rounds? And make up your mind. First, you said that hit points don't matter because you can always heal them up. Now you're saying that hit points DO matter, after all.

There were also plenty of time that he took Literally 100 pts of damge in a round, only to cast Heal, the next round. Seems good to me.

Very good. Now tell me how many heals a DD is going to be casting.

Endur, your next!

I'm not finished with you yet, boyo.

 

[jdavis]

Not 100%, but often the case. As is, I'd rather DM a solo game with one Role-Play oriented Player than to share a table with a group of people whose main objective is to roll higher than me; Heck, I'd rather play Yahtzi, since I don't have to waste so much of my personal time preping for it.

We once planned a fight (in character) for 4 hours, the fight lasted 15 minutes and the plan fell apart on the second round. Sometimes we role play stuff out to the point where the DM has to actually tell us to just get going. We had one guy quit the group because he said we talked to much, good riddance, but it was sort of funny. We have whole sessions where we don't fight anything and we don't use any house rules for experience, we are not looking to up the characters we like to game. That being said we are in the minority here, most people who play D&D want to hit something, and we even discuss the fact that we want to have more action and less story, we just never get around to it, we are in a roleplaying rut. That's what I get for gaming with people with theater backgrounds.

Why don't you guys just settle the Dwarven Defender arguement, somebody make a crazy multiclass Dwarven Defender and somebody make a straight fighter, make them 20th level and Min/max the hell out of them and then compare to see just how over the top the Dwarven Defender is.

 

[Creamsteak]

I found it interesting that I was in the "slump" age category (16-18). I also don't understand the debate over PrCs, Feats for mid levels, and all that other balance stuff. I've found the best balance is to get over (In your mind) the problem in the first case. My players and I have a mutual agreement, if something is impossible for one side or the other side to "threaten" then we nick that little bit off and continue. We added a Save or take 4d8+Class Level to Harm because we agreed it didn't feel right as a spell. We never looked back, and everyone is fine.

 

[incognito]

Hong: Ok then, finish with me! Finshed? My turn to rebutt.

The MOST IMPORTANT THING that was missed in our past go round was that the Barbarian/Cleric/Ranger/Fighter is NOT going to be a DD. Get it out of your head. It' won't happen.

I was comparing the abilities of a staright 7th level PC, as compared to a muti-class character. Forget about high level - this is mid level DnD, and the muti-class character in this case has a wide variety of abilities that enable him to be good at most things. which is the definition of Mary Sue.

WRT to your comments on HP. You're right, on casual inspection, it seemd that I was saying HP are improtant, and NOT important. Allow me to clarify. For a Tank, having tons of HP is more important than having a high reflex save. When I say HP are not as important in the saving throw context, it is because you have so many, on EL/CR challenges will not be able to throw spells which casue a Reflex save for half damage to make a difference. You must also consider the ubiquitousness of spell that cure damage in 3E. Bottom line, have lots of HP, and ready access to healing, Don't worry about the reflex save. It is MORE important to cover your WILL save and you FORT save, which as I mentioned, becsaue they tend to be "save or die" sitiuations, where the # of HP makes little or no difference.

Oh, and by the way Endure elements lasts 24 hours Hong. Not that I don't make rules mistakes all the time, but I wanted to point it out becasue it is a pretty effective strategy for low level Cleric-muticlass characters to use.

On to giants, dragons, and damage. The damage I was quoting was the character fdamge - and we all know that monsters tend to do more damge than characters. No suprise. AS I pointed out to Endur though, you can have hope (with the other party meember's support, or course) to fighting melee with a high Attack bonus creaure.

I'll breifly mention that Dwarves are particularly effective against giants. If they hit a properly armored dwarven melee type, it is by luck.

Moving on Saying a +4 dodge bonus to AC does not help is pretty strange. I am fairl sure I coudl come up with a non far fetches scenario in which any near EL encounter could not hit (except on a 20) a DD (who also has +1 AC from dodge, and general +1 AC bonus at low level . At higher level it gets to +3/+4! SO not I can have an additional AC bonus of +7/+8 - like an extra set of plate mail! that is effective against tough ac, and incorporeal attacks. Seems pretty good to me.

I'll give you a possible high level breakdown of AC.
+5 shield (+7), +5 dwarven plate (+13), +3 DEX (max), +5 ring of protection, +5 amulet of natural armor, +1 dodge, +4 defensive stance, +3 AC bonus form DD, and Haste (+4). Some of those "+5's" can come from magic vestment, rather than a cash outlay

That's AC: 55

Let's say this character is 15-16th level (so he can have enough $$$ to afford these goodies). An "old" Blue dragon is truly a fearsome foe at CR17. and at +1 to +2 ECL, one of the more horrifying things a PC will face at this level.

The Total 'to hit bonus' of an dragon of this age category is +35. He needs a 20 to hit you. And that's if he does not power attack. (dragon's being arrogant, often do in my world). If you could corner him/it, the DD could toe to toe all day long (or as long as haste lasts, anyway...

Finally - yes, the DD will not be casting heal, but living long enough to stay alive for heal is pretty handy, no? And out good buddy the Barbarian2/Ranger1/Fighter2/Cleric2 - well, he can use a wand, and if your worried abotu the expense, think about how costly dying is (one level)...but in mroe seriousness, it cost $21K for a fully charged wand of cure serious. That much is true, but in terms of chracter wealth, you ar emore liely to have one with only 5 or 10 charges on it - which is significantly less expensive. And just as usefull, until it runs out...

awaiting your rebuttal - and I have to say - I enjoy your posts - that are pretty well written, and point out where I have bneen remiss in explanation, though I disagree with some of your precepts.

 

[jdavis]

+5 shield (+7), +5 dwarven plate (+13), +3 DEX (max), +5 ring of protection, +5 amulet of natural armor, +1 dodge, +4 defensive stance, +3 AC bonus form DD, and Haste (+4). Some of those "+5's" can come from magic vestment, rather than a cash outlay

Hate to but back in again (just can't help it) The shield, armor, ring and amulet would be 160057gp ( oh and a dwarf with at least a 16 Dex.)

Let's say this character is 15-16th level (so he can have enough $$$ to afford these goodies). An "old" Blue dragon is truly a fearsome foe at CR17. and at +1 to +2 ECL, one of the more horrifying things a PC will face at this level.

I wouldn't see the Dragon as a fearsome foe, he's only one CR up on the character level, that is a pretty basic challenge and if the players are making insane unstoppable characters then he is a push over. My group took out a Mature adult Red at 12th level (CR 17) and we are not that over the top in our characters. That was a fearsome foe, it killed two characters out of a party of 6 (luckily we still had a couple of charges left in the staff of life), we threw everything we had at it and we had a good plan.

Of course if you are just wanting the crazy min/maxed dwarf vs the dragon one on one it would be a good fight but I'd put my money on the Dragon (being as he can fly and would only need to hover above the Dwarf and pelt him with his breath weapon or hit him with spells {9th level caster)