D&D 5E Xanathar's Elven Accuracy

5ekyu

Hero
[MENTION=6802951]Cap'n Kobold[/MENTION] You are right i did exagerate a bit in my example, propably mainly i want to criticize the multiclassing simply built for some game mechanics gimmic coming into effect, e.g. Pally able to Nova + gets a sneak attack or whatever that build was.

A Pally in my Point of view is something Special. In the 2nd ed i remember it was stated in some official book, that a Paladin is a 1 in 100. Means on every PC Paladin there are 99 other PC. That was reinforced with the Minimum required stats for Pallys back then, which were very hard to roll with certain roling methods.

A different Paladin like todays 5E variations still should still be something Special, in so far that he takes an oath on something and is devoted to a higher goal than mundane wealth or whatever other funs.

That means a personality, someone who would not easily stray from a given path. Means purely rp - wise a Paladin should be a class which is among the least used for multiclass.
For myself i do not restrict my view of classes to pair up with role playing like this.

The easiest hitch in your position idms that yes, the paladin has devoted himself to an oath and something greater than himself and a goal. But what if that goal is best accomplished with multiclass build?

If for a character "my purity" is more important than the goals of his calling, seems like rhe character has put the calling second, not first. First is me, me, me. Second is the other stuff.

Doesn't really sound all that special, just a better PR intro.

More to the point, the key is a gm *can* impose his preferences on his world and say "to be rogue must steal" and "to be wizard must pointy hat and pipe" and "to be cleric must be pompous windbag" and so on and so on if he feels his world needs that characterization forced or is better for it.... But... These lock- downs should be made clear to all involved at outset, not when someone has an idea that conflicts.

If foljs join in with open eyes its always easier when conflicts need resolution. Well, most always.

Me? Classes in my games are bundled packages. A warrior might be any number of classes even multiclassed. The "class" is a measure of "how the character works" not "who the character is". Those elements should fit together with "what they have done" like three pieces of a puzzle and create a beautiful thing... A character.

To require and mandate that any one of those **must** be supreme is to me just a waste of opportunity, a culling of potential and not a restriction that i find helps my games.

But each is different.



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Keravath

Explorer
[MENTION=6802951]Cap'n Kobold[/MENTION] You are right i did exagerate a bit in my example, propably mainly i want to criticize the multiclassing simply built for some game mechanics gimmic coming into effect, e.g. Pally able to Nova + gets a sneak attack or whatever that build was.

A Pally in my Point of view is something Special. In the 2nd ed i remember it was stated in some official book, that a Paladin is a 1 in 100. Means on every PC Paladin there are 99 other PC. That was reinforced with the Minimum required stats for Pallys back then, which were very hard to roll with certain roling methods.

A different Paladin like todays 5E variations still should still be something Special, in so far that he takes an oath on something and is devoted to a higher goal than mundane wealth or whatever other funs.

That means a personality, someone who would not easily stray from a given path. Means purely rp - wise a Paladin should be a class which is among the least used for multiclass.

I think one of the strengths of 5e compared to the earlier versions is the essential flexibility in the classes and the characters that can be played. Pigeon holing paladins as the lawful stupid archetype of previous editions seems to me to be missing the complete redesign of the class in 5e. Similarly, enforcing cliche'd archetypes on the other classes like fighters and rogues also does them a significant disservice.

You are, of course, welcome to play whatever you like in your game ... but by limiting the classes to what was envisaged in 2e rather than 5e ... you leave out a lot of roleplaying options especially for a paladin which no longer has to follow such a restrictive covenant.

- Oath of Devotion (the classic paladin)
- Oath of the Ancients (nature paladin or a paladin that focuses on good without respect to law or chaos .. you could also call it the "party" paladin :) "Delight in song and laughter, in beauty and art.")
- Oath of Vengeance (this doesn't match up to any previous paladin concepts ... fighting the greater evil over the lesser ... perhaps even allying with evil in pursuit of greater goals)
- Oath of Conquest (glory in battle paladin, this is more the lawful paladin rather than good/evil)
- Oath of Redemption (peaceful paladin, fighting as a last resort, even bad guys can be redeemed ... very tough to play in a campaign since the role play aspects put the character at a combat disadvantage)

... and these are only the paladin options in the PHB and XAN. They go so far beyond the "must be lawful good knight in shining armor stereotype).

Would a paladin multiclass? Yes, depending on the circumstances. An Oath of Vengeance or Oath of Conquest paladin might well multiclass into rogue or fighter if they felt it would make them more effective at fulfilling their oath. It has nothing to do with the rogue being a "sneaky thief" since the stealth skills, additional options in battle and additional damage from well placed attacks might well make an Oath of Vengeance paladin better at fulfilling the goals of the character. They might never steal anything but in game, the character might see how rogue skills would synergize with his goals.

Basically, the mechanics of the classes and the character abilities are the same. If the player can see benefits of multiclassing then likely so could the character from a role play perspective.

How about some other multiclass options? Oath of Ancients paladin/bard ... absolutely ... makes complete sense with keeping people happy. Oath of Ancients paladin/fey warlock ... if the fey is closely tied to the paladin's goals of defending nature then this can be completely in character. Paladin 2/ Sorceror X ... this is a magic using character that has strong beliefs and wishes to uphold righteousness but prefers to rely more on magic than on their martial prowess. There are lots of role play reasons for such a character.

The interesting thing ... none of these potentially amazing characters (from a role play perspective) would be allowed in your game because of the narrow class definitions you prefer (that are actually not a part of 5e).
 

Coroc

Hero
[MENTION=6916036]Keravath[/MENTION] you are right, 5E offers many new possibilities to envision a different Kind of Paladin, with or without multiclassing.

Otoh you yourself gave "Fitting" examples of mc combinations: Your Oath of Ancients paladin/fey warlock , it does not break anything. I totally would allow this mc if the oath of anciants would fit in my campaign Setting and if it were agreed with the Players that mc is an Option.

But more often than not in my campaigns certain (sometimes much more mundane) classes or races just do not fit easily. E.g. A (classic) Paladin in Ravenloft. I am old School (repeating myself lol) and for me in ravenloft still the following 2e rule is in effect as a 5e houserule: A Domain ruler instantly is Aware of a Paladin in his Domain, he knows his exact Location at any given time and most propably will give the Paladin "special attention" which normally spells instant death for the pally.

E.g. a Monk in a dark sun campaign, trivialises many of the signature challenges of that Setting.

E.g. a drow/dragonborn/tiefling eventually a halforc in any vanilla campaign (not official FR):
He would be considered a monster by normal People and eventually hunted down / torched along with the rest of the Party.

As a DM i do not want to find Workarounds to some of my Standard assumptions or ideas how a certain Setting might work just to include every space hamster ninja pirate PC. Of course i discuss that upfront with my Players and they have to agree to these restrictions. If someone of them has a Special idea i will make it possible if it is possible at all but that might alter the whole Setting / npcs Mobs etc etc
 

Yaarel

He Mage
Elven Accuracy should probably include Strength attacks too.

The Grugach Elf is especially known for extreme Strength and spear attacks.

The 1e Wood Elf is known for Strength too.

Besides, some Elf subraces are assumed to be to masters of the longsword, who, despite an absent bonus to Strength, are probably using Strength for longsword attacks.

Maybe the Elven Accuracy should work for a specific weapon or cantrip, decided when gaining the feat.
 

Nikioko

First Post
It always comes to the same result: Elven Accuracy (like many other feats) are only good if you have an odd ability score. If your ability score is even, it hardly outweighs the +2 on your primary attribute. As for Elven Accuracy, before getting a three dice advantage on attacks, you have to get an advantage on attack at all. As for warlocks, you can achieve this by casting spells like darkness (with also negatively affects your fellow combatants and requires devil's sight to see your target through the darkness) or greater invisibility or that sort of. All these spell do not only suck one of your few spell slots, they are also concentratration spells meaning that you cannot stack them with hex, so you MIGHT easier hit your opponent (given that you have an advantage) but you miss out the 1d6 extra damage which in case of Eldritch Blast is 1d6 on each of those blasts. And with the darkness + devil's sight solution, you spend one invocation on top which could be agonizing blast, book of ancient secrets, repelling blast and that sort of.
And not to forget: a +2 on ability score not only gives you a +1 on attacks, it also gives you a +1 on spell saving DC and even a +1 and a d8 instead of d6 on damage if you are fighting with a Shillalagh quarterstaff.
I think that this feat isn't much worth for a warlock (especially with an even ability score). If you really want to go without a +2 on ability score and go with a feat instead, take Spell Sniper or War Caster, but in the end I think, the +2 on ability score is the best choice.
On generation, CHA 14 costs you 7 points, CHA 15 9 points. So unless you get +1 on CHA (like getting +2 when being a half-elf), save those two points and increase another ability below 13 by +2. That is on the long run more efficient.
 
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Yunru

Banned
Banned
An Archer Samurai reaches insane levels of damage by level 6.
To put that in a neat little table, here's the nova (1/SR) of a 18 Dex, Archery fighting style, Sharpshooter Samurai Elf with Elven Accuracy (rounded to 2dp).
AC6789101112131415161718192021222324
Avg Damage66.4966.4366.2865.9765.4664.7063.6562.2460.4458.1955.4452.1448.2443.6938.4532.4525.6618.029.48
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
An Archer Samurai reaches insane levels of damage by level 6.
To put that in a neat little table, here's the nova (1/SR) of a 18 Dex, Archery fighting style, Sharpshooter Samurai Elf with Elven Accuracy (rounded to 2dp).
AC6789101112131415161718192021222324
Avg Damage66.4966.4366.2865.9765.4664.7063.6562.2460.4458.1955.4452.1448.2443.6938.4532.4525.6618.029.48

#1. You can't have 2 feats and 18 dex under normal circumstances at level 6 with a non-human fighter. It would take level 8 to achieve. That doesn't really change the calculations though.

#2. I get higher numbers than yours when looking at the nova for the build you described.
 

Zene

First Post
#1. You can't have 2 feats and 18 dex under normal circumstances at level 6 with a non-human fighter. It would take level 8 to achieve. That doesn't really change the calculations though.

#2. I get higher numbers than yours when looking at the nova for the build you described.

Elven accuracy is a half-feat. Fighters get ASIs at 4 and 6. So:

Point buy 15 dex.
Elf +2 dex for 17.
L4 Elven Accuracy for dex 18.
L6 Sharpshooter.

Voila.
 


If both players want to play some weird (but legal) build, and you would allow one player to use it because they gave you a really cool backstory, but not allow another player to use it because they couldn’t come up with something... that’s basically picking on the handicapped.

I mean, the difference is that one player is already struggling creatively and you’re making things harder on him. It’s much better to sit down with that player and talk through the creative process to come up with something together.
 

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