[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer
- Thread starter Thanee
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Thanee
First Post
Granted. I was just illustrating, that the 3rd level power still can keep up with higher level powers quite good (maybe not exactly the same, but try the same with the wiz/sor's fireball).Plane Sailing said:
I have written a larger comparison between the classes today on a german board, maybe I'll translate it to english and repost it here... It should at least somewhat illustrate my "issues" with the psion.
Bye
Thanee
Thanee
First Post
Class Comparison - Psion versus Wiz/Sor
Many class features are quite similar or equal (BAB, HP, Saves, Skills (sorcerer loses out a bit here, but that's not too bad, charisma has some advantages, too)).
Psionic powers and arcane spells are roughly equal. Of course there are differences, some spells are better, some powers are better, some are equal. The big picture looks pretty equal, tho.
There are more arcane spells than psionic powers to choose from, that's a given, and an advantage for the wizard primarily. The sorcerer still has a somewhat better selection to choose from.
Spells are automatically scaled with caster level, while psionic powers need to be augmented with additional PP. However, spells have caps, while psionic powers are not restricted in this fashion. A level 1 psionic power can still be quite effective in high level play at the expense of a higher level power's PP, of course. Still it's a fact, that psions need to spend more PP compared to the "cost" of a spell level to achieve a similar result, which in turn is greater, tho, due to higher DCs mainly, which should not be forgotten.
If you now get back to the comparison I posted above (the 27 9th level powers per day, still 22 if you manifest them at 20th level), you'll see, that even if the psion wastes all his PP on highest level powers, he has a respectable amount of castings per day!
I believe, that psionic powers and arcane spells are roughly equal, all things considered, especially if you consider, that in higher level the high level spells are usually the ones that count.
Ok.
Now, if you compare the psion with the arcane casters...
Under the assumption, that the core classes (especially sorcerer and wizard) are quite balanced (which I believe is the case, and my experience with both classes also tells me that, even tho the sorcerer might seem a bit "bland" he's still very powerful, since the ability to spontaneously cast is quite powerful, indeed), comparing the psion and the sorcerer (which makes sense, as they are based on very similar concepts - both are spontaneous casters), you'll have to note, that the psion is way ahead there...
- quicker access to higher power levels
- even higher flexibility
- higher flexibility when choosing powers known
- a lot more high level powers known at all levels
- bonus feats
Comparing with the wizard is trickier than that, since the wizard uses the preparation method. The wizard has most of the above, as well, and has a possibly almost unlimited spell knowledge base. But then again, psions manifest their powers spontaneously, which is a huge advantage, as we know from the sorcerer... and they are even better at it than sorcerers!
Now metapsionics might be an issue, as this is something the sorcerer stands out at. Psions surely have harsh limits when it comes to applying metapsionics (psionic focus). Granted. Altho, ones you pick up Psionic Meditation (remember the bonus feats), it's basically the same as for the sorcerer.
But don't forget, that effectively, psions automatically get the effects of Silent Spell, Still Spell, Heighten Spell, Energy Substitution/Affinity und Quicken Spell without any feats necessary (Quicken Spell --> Schism is pretty much the same - ok it's a power, but still - furthermore, it allows an effect similar to spontaneous application of Quicken Spell, something the game designers have taken great care to disallow in the core rules!). The psion will probably learn no more than one metapsionic power (i.e. Maximize) and use it once (or only a few times) per combat. Still not too bad and combined with the above, hardly a disadvantage at all. Schism alone is a huge power boost!
One thing, psions are actually limited with, are the discipline lists. Many of their more powerful powers are found there, so not every psion will have access to all of them. However, Expanded Knowledge allows to pick any those powers, so that's not too bad either. Given the bonus feats and the fact, that they don't need some feats arcane casters do (like Spell Focus - they can essentially buy that one (Psionatrix), or metapsionic feats - see above).
So, the only true disadvantage psions have is their limited selection of powers to choose their powers known from. The advantages on the other hand seem to be overwhelming at least to me.
Bye
Thanee
Many class features are quite similar or equal (BAB, HP, Saves, Skills (sorcerer loses out a bit here, but that's not too bad, charisma has some advantages, too)).
Psionic powers and arcane spells are roughly equal. Of course there are differences, some spells are better, some powers are better, some are equal. The big picture looks pretty equal, tho.
There are more arcane spells than psionic powers to choose from, that's a given, and an advantage for the wizard primarily. The sorcerer still has a somewhat better selection to choose from.
Spells are automatically scaled with caster level, while psionic powers need to be augmented with additional PP. However, spells have caps, while psionic powers are not restricted in this fashion. A level 1 psionic power can still be quite effective in high level play at the expense of a higher level power's PP, of course. Still it's a fact, that psions need to spend more PP compared to the "cost" of a spell level to achieve a similar result, which in turn is greater, tho, due to higher DCs mainly, which should not be forgotten.
If you now get back to the comparison I posted above (the 27 9th level powers per day, still 22 if you manifest them at 20th level), you'll see, that even if the psion wastes all his PP on highest level powers, he has a respectable amount of castings per day!
I believe, that psionic powers and arcane spells are roughly equal, all things considered, especially if you consider, that in higher level the high level spells are usually the ones that count.
Ok.
Now, if you compare the psion with the arcane casters...
Under the assumption, that the core classes (especially sorcerer and wizard) are quite balanced (which I believe is the case, and my experience with both classes also tells me that, even tho the sorcerer might seem a bit "bland" he's still very powerful, since the ability to spontaneously cast is quite powerful, indeed), comparing the psion and the sorcerer (which makes sense, as they are based on very similar concepts - both are spontaneous casters), you'll have to note, that the psion is way ahead there...
- quicker access to higher power levels
- even higher flexibility
- higher flexibility when choosing powers known
- a lot more high level powers known at all levels
- bonus feats
Comparing with the wizard is trickier than that, since the wizard uses the preparation method. The wizard has most of the above, as well, and has a possibly almost unlimited spell knowledge base. But then again, psions manifest their powers spontaneously, which is a huge advantage, as we know from the sorcerer... and they are even better at it than sorcerers!
Now metapsionics might be an issue, as this is something the sorcerer stands out at. Psions surely have harsh limits when it comes to applying metapsionics (psionic focus). Granted. Altho, ones you pick up Psionic Meditation (remember the bonus feats), it's basically the same as for the sorcerer.
But don't forget, that effectively, psions automatically get the effects of Silent Spell, Still Spell, Heighten Spell, Energy Substitution/Affinity und Quicken Spell without any feats necessary (Quicken Spell --> Schism is pretty much the same - ok it's a power, but still - furthermore, it allows an effect similar to spontaneous application of Quicken Spell, something the game designers have taken great care to disallow in the core rules!). The psion will probably learn no more than one metapsionic power (i.e. Maximize) and use it once (or only a few times) per combat. Still not too bad and combined with the above, hardly a disadvantage at all. Schism alone is a huge power boost!
One thing, psions are actually limited with, are the discipline lists. Many of their more powerful powers are found there, so not every psion will have access to all of them. However, Expanded Knowledge allows to pick any those powers, so that's not too bad either. Given the bonus feats and the fact, that they don't need some feats arcane casters do (like Spell Focus - they can essentially buy that one (Psionatrix), or metapsionic feats - see above).
So, the only true disadvantage psions have is their limited selection of powers to choose their powers known from. The advantages on the other hand seem to be overwhelming at least to me.
Bye
Thanee
Last edited:
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Thanee said:
I think the real issue is perhaps that with the new psion powers it doesn't make sense to think of them as plain "3rd level powers", but as power chains (in this case a chain that becomes accessible when 3rd level powers can be manifested).
So it isn't the case of a 3rd level power keeping up with higher level powers, it is more like the psion has started a chain that eventually lets him manifest 4th, 5th, 6th level energy balls (which are still pretty well balanced against equivalent arcane spells).
How does that sound?
Thanee
First Post
You mean with the number of total powers psions get in mind?Plane Sailing said:
Better don't ask me that!
But that's still not exactly covering it. The powers just work different in a way, that they do not scale automatically, but have to be scaled up (thus transforming them into higher level powers essentially). See above for a more complete comparison.
Bye
Thanee
reiella
Explorer
Thanee said:
-Assuming Fire Element Used ; makes comparison alot easier
-Fun stuff, just ran some numbers, and typically due to the Fire/Cold bonus damage, the psion will always end up on top.
[ * ST ~= single target, reference to the bludgeoning damage caused by meteor swarm ]
ML 17 / 25 Manifestations [no torc]
25 * (17d6+17) =? 18*(20d6) + 6 * (24d6-MS) + ST 6 * (8d6)
25 * (76.5) =? 1764 + ST 168
1836 ~= 1764 + ST 168
ML 17 / 27 Manifestations [with torc]
27 * (17d6+17) =? 18*(20d6) + 6 * (24d6-MS) + ST 6 * (8d6)
27 * (76.5) =? 1764 + ST 168
2065.5 > 1764 + ST 168
ML 20 / 22 manifestations [no torc]
22*(20d6+20) =? 18*(20d6) + 6 * (24d6-MS) + ST 6 * (8d6)
1980 =? 1260 + 504 + 168
1980 > 1764 + ST 168
However, the wizard is left with 1st through 5th level powers (10d6, 15d6 cap damage, and of course, Scorching Ray).
Also, there is a good point with Overchannel and Talented possibly skewing the numbers a bit. I've been pretty much ignoring them, but it would shunt more damage the psions way.
The Torc is also a major source of the problem [and it needs to cost 160,000], and grossly increases the damage potential of a psion as they use lower manifest level powers.
The energy type adjustment does clearly favor the Psion. It's only at 17th level that the psion is going to be outdamaged in a Spell For Power comparison.
Thanee
First Post
reiella said:
Yeah, that's one horrible item. We priced it at 100k (10 times list price) in 3.0, and in 3.5 it's still too cheap, probably. Of course, with the psions being forced to augment many of their powers, it's a bit better, since the Torc is really bad, if you do a lot of low level stuff (+50% 2nd level manifestations, or +25% 3rd level manifestations).
Comparing it to the roughly equal (in cost) Ring of Wizardry II, I can only laugh. Sad.
Now Ring of Wizardry is one of the weaker items, but still...
Bye
Thanee
reiella
Explorer
Thanee said:
Ja. That came about because I had the wrong price floating in my head (160,000) and it coming out to Ring of Wizardry IV and Ring of Wizardry II
.It'd be slightly better if there were more 'nice regular' spells at 2nd level and not "nice when you metamagic them" like Scorching Ray. Also a bit more troubling because spells @ level are typically utilities.
Sidenote, can find some good use out of Ring of Wizardry III at least [prepare more Dispel Magics
]. Hideous Laughter or Touch of Idiocy still make nice level 2 spells at least [well and the buff stats], so it's not too bad... It's not as immediately a "Must have" like the torc comes off.It does have a similiar intent/function though.
Thanee
First Post
Ring of Wizardry is way too expensive to be useful at any level (posting a variant in house rules now).
I would never use one, if I could get something else for the same price.
Has anyone looked at Dispel Psionics yet? This is fun, too!
Why are psions better at dispelling than all the other casters!?
+20 dispels (for free each round with Schism even) at 15th level!?
Bye
Thanee
I would never use one, if I could get something else for the same price.
Has anyone looked at Dispel Psionics yet? This is fun, too!
Why are psions better at dispelling than all the other casters!?
+20 dispels (for free each round with Schism even) at 15th level!?
Bye
Thanee
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