[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

[BryonD]

How about you compare this to a heightened spell. That sounds pretty similar to me.

Ok, different approach, same result.

Just that the spells have caps, so their usefulness has a limit (to even this out it doesn't cost anything to scale up to that cap). But yeah, in general I do agree with that, altho I have probably mentioned it in another context.

Bye
Thanee

By the time the spells caps out, you have new spells that are 2+ levels higher. An 11th Sorc can still use a 3rd level slot to get 10d6. The psion's 3rd level slot still does 5d6. He can augment that power to a 6th level power to get 11d6. So a psion can use a 3rd level power and a 6th level slot (11 pts) to get a slightly better result than the 11th level sorcerer gets from a 3rd level spell and a 3rd level slot.

Yes, the sorcerer's spell caps out at about a 5th level effect, while the psion's can scale on up. That is a psion advantage. At higher levels they have more options to select from.

But the psion is clearly more efficient. A psion gets 1d6/pp (or 1.29d6/pp if you add the +1 for fire powers). If you equate spells to pp, the sorcerer gets a MUCH better deal. A sorcerer 10+ gets 10d6 for a 3rd level spell or effectively 2d6/pp (3rd level spell = 5 pp). So the sorcerer can use his lower level slots far more efficiently in exchange for his high level slots being notably less flexible and slightly less potent.

So far that seems a fair trade.

 

[Thanee]

Ok, different approach, same result.

Just that the sorcerer needs a feat (and a full-round action) to do that.

But ok, the augmentation stuff is actually fair...

...So far that seems a fair trade.

That is exactly my opinion as well!

Now... based on that... I find it pretty unfair, that psions get higher level powers one level earlier, have 3-4 times as many by the time the sorcerer has exactly 1, have bonus feats, do not need verbal and somatic or material components or feats+full-round actions to achieve that (that is actually quite important in a grapple ), can wear armor, have better skills...

In exchange... sorcerers get a better selection to choose their spells from, mostly.

Bye
Thanee

 

[BryonD]

Just that the sorcerer needs a feat (and a full-round action) to do that.

But ok, the augmentation stuff is actually fair...

OK

That is exactly my opinion as well!

Now... based on that... I find it pretty unfair, that psions get higher level powers one level earlier, have 3-4 times as many by the time the sorcerer has exactly 1, have bonus feats, do not need verbal and somatic or material components or feats+full-round actions to achieve that (that is actually quite important in a grapple ), can wear armor, have better skills...

In exchange... sorcerers get a better selection to choose their spells from, mostly.

Bye
Thanee

Most of you points only apply to sorcerers, not wizards. If you think sorcerers are to weak compared to wizards, then it is a problem with sorcerers and the relative power of psions or anything in the XPH is meaningless.

The other issues existed pre XPH, and were never a problem to me before, I don't see them starting now.

Bottom line, like everyone else, I've only had the book a short time. But I see both ups and downs and in playing around with it there is no evidence that a psion character will outshine other party members on any consistent basis.

 

[Thanee]

Metamorphasis cannot assume the form of construct, outsider, or undead, and the 4th level version (again, -only- egoists will have the 9th level version) is good for 15 hd or less. Metamorphic Transfer lets you use a form's supernatural ability 3 times per day (as in 3 uses of any supernatural ability per day).

Big deal.

Ok, here are some examples...

Pixie (1 HD) - greater invisibility.
Choker (3 HD) - three extra standard actions.
Medusa (6 HD) - turn to stone.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Most of you points only apply to sorcerers, not wizards.

Of course, wizards cannot cast spontaneously, remember?

If you think spontaneous casting is not good, give it to wizards on top of their other abilities. Then you'll quickly see, just how good it is.

What I am saying is, that sorcerers give up ALL that stuff - compared to the wizard - plus the unlimited spell access to gain spontaneous casting (and a few more spells per day, altho wizards have specialization and pearls of power to even that out); and I believe the ability is worth that. Psions give up NONE of that stuff - again compared to the wizard - except the unlimited spell access to gain an even superior spontaneous casting ability (they don't have more spells per day than wizards (roughly equal probably), but also have access to items and other stuff to build their PP base up). This makes them far superior to sorcerers. And since I am going from the core balance, that sorcerers are as powerful as wizards, it also makes them far superior to wizards as a result.

Now, if this assumption (sorcerer = wizard) is false, the problem - indeed - does not lie with the psion, but with the sorcerer, as you say.

If you think sorcerers are too weak compared to wizards, ...

I'm actually the only one here (or not?) that does not have this opinion!

I think wizards and sorcerers are roughly equal, I try to show you (which I think most actually agree with), that psions are much more powerful than sorcerers. Now, this can mean two things... sorcerers are underpowered or psions are overpowered.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. BTW, nice character... converted from 3.0? Since in 3.5 you normally cannot reincarnate into a centaur.

 

[The Souljourner]

Sorcerers are underpowered. I think we've had all of one sorcerer since 3.0 came out, and this is 10 different players in about 6 different campaigns... if sorcerers were better, I'm sure someone else would have used them. Compare that to the 4-5 wizards. Litmus test? Yeah.

Psions look fine to me. They definitely seem to be on par with specialist wizards.

Things that matter - having to pay for scaling; having to burn feats to get versatility in power selection (and those powers have to be lower than your highest level).

I'll agree Psions seem better than sorcerers. But I don't think that's a bad thing. Sorcerers kinda suck, unless you're happy throwing the same 3 spells around for your entire career.

-The Souljourner

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

How long has 3.0 been out now?
People have said the Sorcerer is too weak since the day it hit the shelves. Now, after a few years of playing one, and a revision, people still say they are too weak.

That alone is enough to really take a look at the Sorcerer's power level. Why they didn't fix them in 3.5 I'll never know. The ability to swap out spells really helped, but it's not enough.

So yea, the psion is more powerful than the sorcerer. That's good. I'd hate to see it crippled like it was in 3.0 anyway. Now they just need to fix the sorcerer.

If you want to compare the psion to something, compare it to a specialty wizard. It's the closest thing to the psion on the power scale.

 

[Thanee]

If you want to compare the psion to something, compare it to a specialty wizard. It's the closest thing to the psion on the power scale.

That is unfortunately not so easy, spontaneous casting/manifesting versus prepared casting is hard to judge.

Anyways, take a look into the house rules forum and tell me, if you think my re-revised sorcerer is balanced with the psion (and wizard)!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I'll agree Psions seem better than sorcerers. But I don't think that's a bad thing. Sorcerers kinda suck, unless you're happy throwing the same 3 spells around for your entire career.

Hmm... note that psions have (in the end) only a similar amount of powers. They will be using the same ones over and over again as well. They have it a bit better, tho, since they can scale the lower level ones to high levels and throughout their career have more powers to manifest as well.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Irritating Stick]

Just wanted to pipe up and say that Psychic Reformation would allow a Psion to trade out his powers like a Sorcerer is able to do.

Incidently, it would also allow them to Craft many types of psionic items.