yet another language thread

[Kahuna Burger]

OK, the complaints have been aired ad naseum. Common tongues are boring, "you either speak a language or you don't" is silly, but skill points are too valauble to waste on language fluency when you have low level spells kicking around.

So another idea. Why not make learning a language potentially independant of skill points, or even intelligence? (I think intelligence has enough use in skill points that giving essentially an extra batch of bonus skill points to use on languages at first level is excessive...) After all, there are two ways topick up a language - schooling and exposure. While I can see the first as being int based, the second seems more wis based to me. The other thought is that receptive language use it much harder than expressive - you can learn to understand a laguage much more easily that you can speak it.

So here's the thought. At first level, you have one language you can speak and understand perfectly, plus one for every point of wisdom _if_ you have been exposed to that language in your background (this makes background more in need of vetting, but thats what DMs are for). When you are exposed for a long period of time to a new language, you pick some of it up, allowing you to make language checks to either understand or express something. You get a bonus to that check based on your exposure to the language, whether the other person involved is cooperating in helping you understand, your wisdom bonus (maybe cha for expressing yourself in a different language) and possibly other skills or feats. The DC to express youself in another language is harder than that for understanding, for the same lavel of simplicity of message.

This is similar to the spycraft/stargate system except for the idea that you can gain languages through your roleplayed exposure, rather than only by spending skill points. You can still spend skill points to get bonuses, representing your perusal of phrase books or hiring of tutors, but it takes more points than before to get fluency. Here's a completely off the cuff samples of DCs and bonuses...

DC Message (receving)
5 "Please come with me"
15 "The area ahead is dangerous, but if you stay close I will protect you"
25 "This man is dangerous and untrustworthy, but my daugter loves him so I am giving him a chance but keeping a close eye on him"
35 "While many of the ancients believed that a prophecy represented the diety's promise for the future, we have come to understand that it is really a plan we must follow to get the prophecied results. To have a destiny isn't enough, as many have destinies and may well want them more than you do."

DC Message (communicating)
10 "please come with me"
20 "Stay here until I return or 3 hours pass, then go and tell my friends"
30 "This man looks like one of your enemies, but thats only coincidence, and you need to trust him and not expect him to know anything about them"
40 "If you help us now then we will return in thirty days to defeat your enemies, and wewill have much geater power then. This gem we are leaving you as collateral actually contains the soul of one of our dead friends so please don't cut it or anything"

bonuses/penalties
+2 fluency in a similar language to that spoken.
+2 use of gestures, when they are being attended to.
+2 active cooperation from the person being communicated with.
+5 a year or more of casual exposure to the language. (did not have to communicate in it, but heard it being spoken on a regular basis)
+5 one week of immersion in the language (no other languages spoken, forced to constantly try to communicate and understand.)
+10 One month of imersion in language.
-2 evesdropping on fluent speakers who are rushed or oblique in their conversation.
-5 evesdropping on those who make their conversation deliberately more obscure through use of slang or cultural allusion.
-10 Speaker uses a simple language twist to disguise words (pig latin, ubby dubby, etc)
-5 Language is radically different than any language spoken (extra planar, etc)
-10 Language contains sounds that the character can only approximate (-15 to expressive)

You can take ten as normal, but only if the speaker is cooperating for receptive checks. Taking 20 represents a cooperative speaker or listener spending at least 10 minutes in intensive communication attempts.

Like I said, the actual numbers are off the top of my head, but it boils down to wanting characters to be able to communicate, and even get better at new languages without waiting to level up then becoming instantly fluent. Skill points placed in languages would probably give a +5 bonus to the check per rank, with full fluency granted at 4 ranks and accent elimination for 5. So a first level expert completely dedicated to language use could be "native" in say 4 languages, fluent in 6 or 7 and take a language talent feat to have a reasonable chance at communicating simple to moderate ideas with anyone.

thus ends the random thoughts

kahuna burger

 

[Nifft]

I have proposed a very similar system, with the exception that it requires a Feat to do the Stargate-esque "figure-out-the-language" trick. The Feat (Natural Linguist) grants you one virtual rank (stacks with nothing) when you either have 1 week of covert observation, 1 day of free observation, or 10 minutes of friendly co-operation.

I don't want communication to be free -- PCs have spells, items, and I give the l'il bastards 2 extra skill points per level.

It's apparently being published in Destan's new book.

-- N

 

[jessemock]

So another idea. Why not make learning a language potentially independant of skill points, or even intelligence? (I think intelligence has enough use in skill points that giving essentially an extra batch of bonus skill points to use on languages at first level is excessive...) After all, there are two ways topick up a language - schooling and exposure. While I can see the first as being int based, the second seems more wis based to me.

I like the system you've set up here, though it seems to me that it does amount to a sort of segregated skill. I'm uncertain about the use of Wis., because I'm not sure that linguistic ability is divided between multiple intelligences (which is what Int., Wis., and even Cha. are).

But, if you do want to make this distinction, then shouldn't it be possible to draw from both abilities--or, more precisely, from either one, dependent on the situation?

The other thought is that receptive language use it much harder than expressive -

Reverse that, right?

So here's the thought. At first level, you have one language you can speak and understand perfectly,

This I would argue with: most people do not speak their native languages perfectly.

Maybe native speakers could have an initial fifty ranks (or something) in their language?

When you are exposed for a long period of time to a new language, you pick some of it up, allowing you to make language checks to either understand or express something. You get a bonus to that check based on your exposure to the language, whether the other person involved is cooperating in helping you understand, your wisdom bonus

This is where it's going to get ugly, of course. Do you have some ideas for the mechanic here?

(maybe cha for expressing yourself in a different language)

Charisma's really the trickiest part, I think. I'm ready to say that a character may only have Charisma in a language equal to his ranks, plus his Cha. modifier (limit of his original score, of course) or something.

Like I said, the actual numbers are off the top of my head, but it boils down to wanting characters to be able to communicate, and even get better at new languages without waiting to level up then becoming instantly fluent. Skill points placed in languages would probably give a +5 bonus to the check per rank, with full fluency granted at 4 ranks and accent elimination for 5. So a first level expert completely dedicated to language use could be "native" in say 4 languages, fluent in 6 or 7 and take a language talent feat to have a reasonable chance at communicating simple to moderate ideas with anyone.

Some good ideas. You may want to check out Dana Driscoll's column over at the Silven Crossroads site. I don't know how to make links on this board.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Reverse that, right?

argh, do not post as headache avoidance... yeah, exactly opposite, which at least I got right in the DCs

This I would argue with: most people do not speak their native languages perfectly.

Maybe native speakers could have an initial fifty ranks (or something) in their language?

by perfectly, I mean thatthey do not need to make rolls to understand somethign or communicate it (if they have the requisite intelligence to form the idea). by some people's method of play, anytime you can't take ten there is always a chance of failure, regardless or skill level... by perfect fluency I simply mean that they never need to make a roll to engage in conversation.

Kahuna Burger

 

[jessemock]

by some people's method of play, anytime you can't take ten there is always a chance of failure, regardless or skill level... by perfect fluency I simply mean that they never need to make a roll to engage in conversation.

Right. In terms of average game-play, perfect fluency would mean no rolls--except in certain situations and under certain conditions, I would argue.


What would you see as the relation between language-based skills and a language mechanic?

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Right. In terms of average game-play, perfect fluency would mean no rolls--except in certain situations and under certain conditions, I would argue.


What would you see as the relation between language-based skills and a language mechanic?

well, if I'm answering a different question than you're trying to ask, then let me know. Attempting a diplomacy check in a language that you aren't fluent in would obviously bring a heavy penalty, and non native (non accent removed) languages would have a smaller one. Sense motive would also be more difficult when the person is speaking a language you aren't fluent in, as you'll be paying more attention to content than subtle cues. Attempts to use perform oratory or singing in forgien languages would pose the same problems.

Additionally, I'd say that use of tongues or comprehend languages would have some of the same problems. In the former case, I would make languages more useful by ruling that the effect is noticable magical - people who pay attention realize you are basicly being dubbed, and you do not express abstract concepts, metaphores, etc well. Comprehend languages would not allow you to understand similarly abstract speach well, and again there could be problems with sense motive. (I envision it as a voiceover similar to the sort of translaters you hear on tv or radio. Its hard to pay attention to the emotions in the person actually speaking, when the content is coming to you a beat behind in a smooth unemotional midwestern accent. )

oh yeah, and important modifier I forgot last time is that if you are using comprehend languages, it should give bonuses when trying to express yourself to a cooperative listener (assuming an extended communication and feedback)

Kahuna Burger

 

[jessemock]

Attempting a diplomacy check in a language that you aren't fluent in would obviously bring a heavy penalty, and non native (non accent removed) languages would have a smaller one. Sense motive would also be more difficult when the person is speaking a language you aren't fluent in, as you'll be paying more attention to content than subtle cues. Attempts to use perform oratory or singing in forgien languages would pose the same problems.

Yeah; that's pretty much what I'm getting at. I'd say just about all the Charisma skills (and possibly Charisma itself) should suffer a penalty. That bit about music helps to introduce another factor that is tied up with the question of language: culture. It's simply not enough to know how to speak a language in order to engage in Diplomacy (or lie or intimidate someone); you have to know the proper etiquette (or whatever) for these kinds of exchanges.

This could provide an additional benfit to the language skill: a character who learns language through immersion learns cultural codes as well; those who learn scholastically or who use magic don't acquire this additional information and therefore don't receive a full reprieve from the attendant penalties.

Similarly (and back to music), I see no problem with rendering members of a culture distant enough from a Bard (or whatevs) immune to certain musical effects. I mean that the Fascinate ability, for example, goes back to Orpheus, but the Greeks had a very narrow definition of what constituted musical beauty. Why should Orpheus have the ability to charm the Chinese?

Additionally, I'd say that use of tongues or comprehend languages would have some of the same problems. In the former case, I would make languages more useful by ruling that the effect is noticable magical - people who pay attention realize you are basicly being dubbed, and you do not express abstract concepts, metaphores, etc well. Comprehend languages would not allow you to understand similarly abstract speach well, and again there could be problems with sense motive. (I envision it as a voiceover similar to the sort of translaters you hear on tv or radio. Its hard to pay attention to the emotions in the person actually speaking, when the content is coming to you a beat behind in a smooth unemotional midwestern accent. )

That's pretty sweet--I'll be using it, thanks!

 

[CombatWombat51]

I'm pretty sure that the 1E DMG has a rule for how long it takes to learn a language by being immersed in it, and probably some other rules on learning languages, too, but I can't remember. It took either 20 or 24 months, minus your Intelligence score.

Here's my less than extensive houserules on it. Note that I also removed Comprehend Languages and Tongues, and there's less languages (and races) IMC.

Speak Language
You learn a new language.
Benefit: Choose a new language. You can speak that language, though you have an accent that creatures can detect by making a Listen check (DC 10 + Cha mod).
You can attempt to hide your accent (or fake a different accent) by making a successful Disguise check opposed to the listener’s Listen check. Native speakers get a +10 racial bonus to this Listen check. A character can determine the specific type of accent by making a second Listen check at –10 (which you may still choose to disguise, and to which native speakers still get a +10 racial bonus).
Normal: Starting characters know Common, and their racial tongue (if any).
You can learn a language without spending a feat by being immersed in a language. Learning a language in such a way takes 24 months minus the character’s Intelligence score (1 month minimum).
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. You can choose to either learn another language, or you may perfect a non-native language you already know. The latter incurs a –20 penalty to the Listen check of creatures trying to notice or identify your accent.
Notes: Bards gain Literacy as a bonus feat when they choose this feat.


Literacy
You can read and write in a language that you know.
Benefit: Choose a language that you can speak. You can now read and write in that language.
Normal: Characters aren’t literate.
Special: Bards get this feat as a bonus feat whenever they take the Speak Language feat. Bards, priests (clerics) and wizards gain Literacy as a bonus feat at first level.

 

[jessemock]

Oof. I wouldn't want to burn a Feat on a single language, but if it makes an end-run around the length of time immersion takes? Hm. This makes me wonder, actually, where do feats come from?

Probably better not to ask.

At any rate, it seems to me that the results of this feat are similar to those produced by learning a language scholastically, rather than through immersion.

I'd still want to maintain this as a skill, but perhaps offer a feat that provides an aptitude for language acquisition? Half the time to learn and speak with no accent?

 

[Spatzimaus]

IMC, we tried integrating a d20Modern-style setup, with Speak Language and Read/Write Language as separate skills, and languages divided into groups. It worked okay.

If you have a half-rank in a language, you can use it crudely. Your accent is obvious, and no complex concepts can be used correctly; you can TRY to use them (see below), but only through roundabout explanations (instead of "oven" you say "box of heat for food")
If you have a full rank in a language, you can use it fluently, and any concept you know can be explained succinctly. In addition, you are treated as having half-rank proficiency in all other languages within the same group. Buying a full rank of another language within the same group gives full proficiency in the entire group.

This works for written languages as well. A half-rank reads like those Nigerian e-mail scams; people understand what you want to say, usually, but it's not that intelligible.

Then, there's the Comprehension check. These are simple INT checks that come up whenever two people are trying to communicate with each other. If both people are using the same language AND both have a full proficiency, you don't need to do this.

Each player rolls 1d20+INT, versus certain DCs:
5: Basic information, especially if it can be accompanied by appropriate gestures, includes proper nouns, or has local context ("Where is the bathroom?", "Where is Luigi's Restaurant?", or "What's that building over there?")
10: Basic information that doesn't have proper nouns, doesn't allow for gestures, and doesn't have any immediate context. ("What's the capital of your country?")
15: More complex information ("What are some good restaurants around here?")
20: Technical information ("Why did my hairdryer explode when I plugged it into the 220V outlet?")
25+: Answers requiring long, detailed explanations ("What can change the nature of a man?")

Each participant in the conversation receives a +2 bonus if anyone has full proficiency (this applies to all of them, since it's assumed the native speaker picks his words carefully). Each participant who lacks even half-proficiency suffers a -2 penalty to his check.
(Roleplaying well should add another 1 or 2. Subtract 1 or 2 if they do that whole yelling thing, as if saying it louder would make it comprehensible.)

If either player fails this check, he fails to understand the other. If he misses by 5 or more, he misunderstands the other and thinks they meant something else. Retries are not normally allowed unless the DM decides to make an exception, and the retries should be at a cumulative -5 penalty. Since it's not a skill check you can't take 10.

Anyway, the biggest complaint has been that it's too many skill points to spend on too little benefit. One suggestion we've been considering is giving all races 1 extra skill point per level, which can only be spent on certain skills depending on race (such as Knowledge for Elves, Craft for Dwarves, Profession for Humans, etc.) or language skills.