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D&D 5E You can't necessarily go back

That comes across as such a cheap and snide thing to say because "they" are not absolutely going in the direction you want, though I of course could be wrong.
In fact it's the other way around: it's more work for the designers to work out modules we can all tack onto the framework and call the game our own than it would be if they just designed it one way and said "take it or leave it".

Lanefan
 

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Speaking only for myself, back in the day, campaigns tended to last about 1 year (give or take). Then again, IME, campaigns have always had a shelf life of 6-18 months. I remember polling En World some time ago about the longest campaigns. Let me see if my Google-fu is up to the task of finding that thread. But, IIRC, the vast majority of responses were still under the 2 year mark.

Looking for the thread, I see this one from 2003 http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/39944-longest-campaign-youve-run-played.html which pegs about 2/3rds of campaigns ending at the 2 year mark.

This one skews a bit (from 2008) because one choice is 2-4 years, but, ignoring that skew, about 50% of campaigns last 2 years or less, so probably similar results to the 2003 poll. http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-discussion/217967-campaign-length.html

This one is also skewed (1-5 years is a choice) http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/254459-gms-how-long-your-typical-campaign-4.html but, again, about 90% last less than 5 years.

So, I'd say that the "long campaign" Lanefan style is very, very much the outlier.
 
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So, I'd say that the "long campaign" Lanefan style is very, very much the outlier.

Depends. The ENWorld polls are very hard to generalize to the wider gaming population. Too much selection bias.
 

Depends. The ENWorld polls are very hard to generalize to the wider gaming population. Too much selection bias.

Well, then we can go by WOTC's market research back in the late 90's, which pegged groups as lasting around 18 months. So, again, there is a fair bit of evidence that the really long term campaign is something of an outlier.

If poll after poll spread over almost ten years gets similar results, I'm fairly willing to buy that as a reasonable approximation of truth.
 

Well, then we can go by WOTC's market research back in the late 90's, which pegged groups as lasting around 18 months. So, again, there is a fair bit of evidence that the really long term campaign is something of an outlier.

If poll after poll spread over almost ten years gets similar results, I'm fairly willing to buy that as a reasonable approximation of truth.

We can do so only for selected groupings, however, since WotC injected its own selection bias by excluding older gamers (over 35). And we don't really have good generalizable data on what the trends have been since 1999's survey.
So is it really an outlier? I don't know. 20 year campaigns? Maybe. But 4-5 or even 10 year campaigns? Probably not. There would probably be enough of a cluster of those on a decent survey to rule out campaigns that long being true outlliers.
 

This is one of those statements like "4e is deadlier than 3e" that is completely untrue on its face. 4e's game design is one in which characters:

• Heal to full with six hours of rest.
• Survive several hits before dropping.
• Usually heal to full between encounters.
• Have character classes that heal by shouting encouragement.
• Will almost always survive a critical hit.
• Start as "heroes" from the day they are created.

The only way that 4e is less gritty is when DMs hand out wands of cure light wounds like candy (which hasn't happened in any 3e/Pathfinder game I've ever run in). 4e is designed to be less gritty straight out of the box.

Based on my many years of playing both 3E and 4E your argument that 3E is a default grittier game than 4E is false. All of these bullet points presented that supposedly make 4E a less grittier game exist in 3e as well. (Assuming a standard party of cleric, wizard, rogue, fighter). The truth is both games are equally "non gritty" games if played by the default rules.

In 3E Every time the party rests for the night they heal to full... because the cleric converts every spell he didn't cast into a healing spell and sprinkles it on to the party one by one until they are all cured. If for whatever reason the cleric runs out of spells due to a grueling day, then they break out the CLW wand. Every game of standard 3E I've ever played has seen the party heal to full after a night's rest. In 4E every time a party takes an extended rest this process is hand waved and everyone simply heals to full. The effect is the same in both systems.

Every 3E character I've ever played has been able to survive more than one hit before dropping (with one exception see below). First level is the only time a character remotely has a chance to be one shot. And the first level wizard I played I assigned con as his secondary best score and gave him the toughness feat, so he started off with enough plot protection to keep him safe as well.

So a 4E party has a warlord instead of a cleric, maybe one group hates the flavor maybe another likes it... but bottom line is both editions have about the same ratio of healers to damage dealers in the makeup of the party, so both editions have the same amount of healing going on.

Other than a game where a first level character got obliterated by an orc with a greataxe crit, I have yet in my years of play experience to see a 3E player character taken from full hp to -10 hp from a monster crit.

There is a reason 3E characters start out with max hp, higher ability score arrays, and access to special PC character classes... because from the time they begin the game they are heroes. NPCs often use classes like commoner, expert, and warrior that are suboptimal for a reason.

DMs that play 3E by the rules don't pass out cure light wounds wands like candy. DMs that play 3E by the rules however, allow a party member to take the "craft wands" feat and create a 50 charge cure light wounds wand for 375gp and very nominal xp. (Or better yet a wand of lesser vigor).

Sure, I've played in house ruled 3E games that disallow CLW wands but those are house ruled games. A house ruled game to make the game more gritty. There are plenty of house rules one can introduce to the default 4E game to make the game more gritty as well. I suppose there are games out there where the players intentionally choose not to equip themselves with CLW or lesser vigor wands, even if the DM would otherwise allow it, but I haven't played in any.

Bottom line is the standard 3E and 4E rulesets are "non-gritty" systems. I'll buy into arguments that BECMI or AD&D is a more gritty system, and there are some grittier settings such as Ravenloft or Dark Sun, but Vanilla D&D as a whole compared to other fantasy RPGs tends to be less gritty unless the DM takes steps to home brew a game world with house rules to intentionally make the game grittier.
 

So is it really an outlier? I don't know. 20 year campaigns? Maybe. But 4-5 or even 10 year campaigns? Probably not. There would probably be enough of a cluster of those on a decent survey to rule out campaigns that long being true outlliers.
There's also the obvious numerical advantage short-term campaigns will have in that a group could bang through 5 different 2-year campaigns in the same 10 years I take to run one campaign.

There's also two different types of short-term campaigns. One is the campaign that was intended to go longer but failed early for some reason (people moved away, poor DM, incompatible styles, whatever); and the other is the campaign that - while short - has a defined start, middle, and end. An example of the latter would be a campaign that took 2 years to run "War of the Burning Sky" from start to finish, then ended.

When I think of campaign length I ignore the "failed campaigns"; those can happen in any edition of any system and for these purposes just represent static.

Lanefan
 

I ran a game for about 10 years but there were some breaks within that time period due to life issues. I think 5 years in those days wouldn't have been that odd but hardly the norm. It's the nature of any game that if it doesn't go well you drop it. Monopoly's "average" result is probably an unfinished game. So all the campaigns that started, ran a month or two, and then died definitely would bring the average down. The real question would be - how long do really good campaigns last? My guess is three years is typical.
 

Well, I dunno to be honest. Maybe it's just because my life has never really been stable enough until I was in my 30's to even consider committing to a 3+ year campaign. In school, be it high school or uni, I doubt most campaigns last more than a year or two simply because people are so mobile.

Granted, I don't have any hard data, so, I'm reading the chicken entrails here too. But, from every poll and piece of evidence I've seen, anything beyond about two years is pretty rare. As Lanefan says, any sort of "Adventure Path" style campaign isn't going to last that long and I think that people's groups simply don't stay together long enough to get multi-year campaigns off the ground very often.

And, let's be honest here, every version of D&D has tended to top out after about 18 months of weekly play. Other than maybe BECMI. But, after about 18 months, most groups are probably looking at starting new campaigns. Look at how little high level play gets actually played. There's a reason we don't get high level modules all that often. Everyone still plays low to mid level, because it takes too darn long to get up to high level.
 

And, let's be honest here, every version of D&D has tended to top out after about 18 months of weekly play. Other than maybe BECMI. But, after about 18 months, most groups are probably looking at starting new campaigns. Look at how little high level play gets actually played. There's a reason we don't get high level modules all that often. Everyone still plays low to mid level, because it takes too darn long to get up to high level.

I think pre-3e you could play longer than eighteen months on a weekly basis. I probably did play nearly that often for four years. Pretty much all through high school. Obviously we missed a weekend here or there but we played more often than every two weeks for sure. When college began we dropped off dramatically in our play schedules. Group average level was around 14 or 15 at that time.
 

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