apesamongus
First Post
I'll add my voice to the chorus that's not sure what option you're talking about.ARandomGod said:
Last edited:
Your thoughts on warlocks
WotC just put a "Warlocks with Class" article:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050630a
The warlock gets 12 invocations, not 4. There are four levels of warlock invocations, and on the warlock's progression it is misleadingly labeled "new invocation" at 6th, 11th, and 16th level.
But I'd think Skip should know that.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050630a
The warlock gets 12 invocations, not 4. There are four levels of warlock invocations, and on the warlock's progression it is misleadingly labeled "new invocation" at 6th, 11th, and 16th level.
But I'd think Skip should know that.
FreeTheSlaves
Adventurer
I'm not bagging the ability to charm but isn't it a bit crazy to be using it regularly in social settings in place of diplomacy?
Tell me if I'm wrong but I mean they are going to notice the spell-like ability being activated, notice a successful save or even think back wondering why they acted so oddly. Charm is an offensive action which can be seen somewhere approaching as offensive as rape in terms of violating freewill, using this regularly is begging to be laid waste by someone.
As an aside the Warlock doesn't sit well with me merely because it is another form of magic use, I don't use psionics for this reason so consistancy calls my shots.
Tell me if I'm wrong but I mean they are going to notice the spell-like ability being activated, notice a successful save or even think back wondering why they acted so oddly. Charm is an offensive action which can be seen somewhere approaching as offensive as rape in terms of violating freewill, using this regularly is begging to be laid waste by someone.
As an aside the Warlock doesn't sit well with me merely because it is another form of magic use, I don't use psionics for this reason so consistancy calls my shots.
Endur
First Post
FreeTheSlaves said:
I kind of think this is sort of like the Jedi Mind Trick. i.e. "These are not the droids you are looking for" or When Luke tries to influence Jabba the Hut and fails, Jabba had SR or made his will save or was just plain immune.
And using the charm ability regularly will cause problems. People will resent that you took advantage of them. And witchcraft may be a death penalty offense in your society.
ARandomGod
First Post
Nail said:Could you spell this out?...connect the dots for us!
Sorry... and I don't have the books, so I'm likely to not use the right word... but yes, I think it's the 'essences'.
In particular the bewitching blast and the blast that drains a level (two levels?) for every hit. You've got a weapon that you can use once per round (Eldritch blast) that you practically cannot miss with (2/3 BAB class and touch attack), that you can shoot from either 250 yards away or in a cone or three at once (various E.Blast shapes that you could learn)....
With a high enough Charisma and some gear the saves on those things are far up there. Take feats to increase the DC's of a spell like ability (Eldritch Blast). And you can mass confuse or later mass level drain.
So you can hit a mass of people with a high save DC "spell" that drains levels* if you fail the save, and whether you save or not does a fair amount of damage. That's what was over the top when I saw it played.
(*Or has some other effect. Admittedly this was the "worst" effect I saw. And yes, some things will be immune to such drains, but a lot of things won't be)
Anyhow, I didn't see any problems with the class other than that.
We tried the class out against the rest of the party (the Warlock was introduced by being assigned to kill the party, longish story), he took down the paladin and his cohort (using bewitching blast), a ranger/rogue, and a monk... well, the rogue managed to flee, and the only player who was permanently killed was the paladin, who was true ressurected via a fund the GM had set up specifically for this scenario).
The warlock was also then completely taken down by another monk he didn't see (an NPC monk, a warlock can do NOTHING in a grapple.. he's even worse off than a normal mage).
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
I guarantee that if you had an ambush scenario between almost ANY equivalent level and fully equipped PC class and the rest of the party, then the party will end up being stuffed. I seem to remember there were other issues about the low effectiveness of the target group too.ARandomGod said:
I don't think you proved anything with that exercise.
Ok a couple of points:
The power ARandomGod is refering to is the Utterblast power which is one of the top tiers powers of the Warlock class. The subject needs to make a fort save or gain two negative levels that disapear in one hour, this invocation is supposed to be equavilent to an eighth level spell. The earliest a Warlock could chose this power is 16th level.
Now Everyone go check the fourth level Enevation spell. Please note that this fourth level spell can have double the effect and double the duration at a much lower character level. Sure a Warlock can throw Utterblast around ad infinitum, but in game terms a 16th level Sorcerer with this or a Necromancer with a wand can essentially do it as much as a Warlock.
Keep in mind Deathward will negate both the Enevation spell and the Utterblast invocation, but while the 16th level sorcerer has only wasted a fourth level spell, the Warlock's highest level power is now non effective. All thanks to a fourth level spell.
Most Warlock powers are like that. Now regarding the Evard's Black Tentacle Invocation, like the spell anyone entering the area of effect is subject to it. If the Warlock is in a group of Archers then yeah it could be bad, but then again a group of Archers with a Druid and not a Warlock can be just as bad, given the right circumstance and an entange spell, or a web spell or any battlefield controlling spell. A Warlock in a group of tanks in probably not going to chose this invocation due to the risk of grappling his own party mates at worst, or slowing their movement to half at best. Paper tiger argument.
One of the biggest balance factors for a Warlock is the small number of Invocations they get, each Eldritch Blast invocation they take is one less Spell like Invocation they can take, and vice versa. For the record an Archer character will easily do more damage than a Warlock, even given the fact a Warlock with his ranged touch attacks will often hit with their one range attack.
A Warlock in terms of power I think stacks up with the bard, a Warlock is a bit more offensively minded of course, but is not a sheer powerhouse when compared to a specialized character. Like a bard, when the Warlock has alot of little things going, they can be very potent, and a smart and creative player can find ways to make them useful, even if it is activating the Invocation that adds a +6 bonus all day long to their intimdate skill and using it on a bad guy to give them a minus to their checks.
Another positive is the class has alot of flavor and is easily accesible by new players. The Warlock in my campaign is played by an old Vampire player, and he simply was overwhelmed by the
sheer number of choices one has to make with a D20 D&D character, the interplay of feats and spells and skills can be very daunting to a person used to a very defined set of powers.
Stating up a Warlock is a very easy prospect; limited feats, limited powers, and no need for killer stats.
The player is happy with it, which means at the moment I am quite happy with the class.
ps Incoporeal Undead will rock a Warlock.
The power ARandomGod is refering to is the Utterblast power which is one of the top tiers powers of the Warlock class. The subject needs to make a fort save or gain two negative levels that disapear in one hour, this invocation is supposed to be equavilent to an eighth level spell. The earliest a Warlock could chose this power is 16th level.
Now Everyone go check the fourth level Enevation spell. Please note that this fourth level spell can have double the effect and double the duration at a much lower character level. Sure a Warlock can throw Utterblast around ad infinitum, but in game terms a 16th level Sorcerer with this or a Necromancer with a wand can essentially do it as much as a Warlock.
Keep in mind Deathward will negate both the Enevation spell and the Utterblast invocation, but while the 16th level sorcerer has only wasted a fourth level spell, the Warlock's highest level power is now non effective. All thanks to a fourth level spell.
Most Warlock powers are like that. Now regarding the Evard's Black Tentacle Invocation, like the spell anyone entering the area of effect is subject to it. If the Warlock is in a group of Archers then yeah it could be bad, but then again a group of Archers with a Druid and not a Warlock can be just as bad, given the right circumstance and an entange spell, or a web spell or any battlefield controlling spell. A Warlock in a group of tanks in probably not going to chose this invocation due to the risk of grappling his own party mates at worst, or slowing their movement to half at best. Paper tiger argument.
One of the biggest balance factors for a Warlock is the small number of Invocations they get, each Eldritch Blast invocation they take is one less Spell like Invocation they can take, and vice versa. For the record an Archer character will easily do more damage than a Warlock, even given the fact a Warlock with his ranged touch attacks will often hit with their one range attack.
A Warlock in terms of power I think stacks up with the bard, a Warlock is a bit more offensively minded of course, but is not a sheer powerhouse when compared to a specialized character. Like a bard, when the Warlock has alot of little things going, they can be very potent, and a smart and creative player can find ways to make them useful, even if it is activating the Invocation that adds a +6 bonus all day long to their intimdate skill and using it on a bad guy to give them a minus to their checks.
Another positive is the class has alot of flavor and is easily accesible by new players. The Warlock in my campaign is played by an old Vampire player, and he simply was overwhelmed by the
sheer number of choices one has to make with a D20 D&D character, the interplay of feats and spells and skills can be very daunting to a person used to a very defined set of powers.
Stating up a Warlock is a very easy prospect; limited feats, limited powers, and no need for killer stats.
The player is happy with it, which means at the moment I am quite happy with the class.
ps Incoporeal Undead will rock a Warlock.
Similar Threads
