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You're doing what? Surprising the DM

Seems likely. I’m sure in a magical fantasy world, we can come up with imaginative situations where these assumptions are false.

We don't even have to go that far a field. Next to the Trojan War, one of the most famous seige scenarios in literature is the story of 'Leiningen Versus the Ants', where the beseiging army is well, a bunch of ants. The fact that the army is impacable ants doesn't make the seige less interesting or dramatic if the viewpoint of the character is resisting the ants - quite the contrary. But from the standpoint of a character that is trying to recover a bag of coffee beans from Leningen's plantation in the midst of the seige, the 'endless' plain of ants is just a harsh environmental hazard and the seige is relevant only to the extent that they decide to help Leningen out. A magical party could just fly in and out and be utterly unconcerned with the seige.

In terms of an Abysmal seige however, the likeliest and expected state is that there are no commanders - this is after all the planar embodiment of chaos and disorder and commanders imply organization and authority. However, like any assumption that could be wrong. The seige could be staged by some fiendish lord bullying minor fiends into doing his bidding - maybe Grazz't or Orcus is present in the assault. And while an Abysmal seige might tend to lead us to believe that none of our assumptions are reliable, it's worth nothing that none of our assumptions about the seige are necessarily reliable. It was suggested early in the thread that the city is besieged by zombies, which implies the assumptions of commanders or meaningful social interaction with the beseigers could be false.
 

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All these are story elements that the players can turn into resources. And they begin trying to do so from the moment the GM says "As you approach the city you see that it is under siege!"

Or they start plotting how to avoid the next contrived blocking point so that they can reach their goal. There is nothing exceptional about the siege compared to the nomads, the refugees, or the mobile military force the PCs chose to ignore outside the city walls. The PCs should end up applying similar rationale and tactic -- avoid and get to the real story! Summon a pseudonatural beetle and burrow beneath. After all, that should be as good as a pair of dimension doors to get us across the besieged sections.
 

I'm going to introduce something that may have some relevance in the Action Scene versus Transition Scene quagmire we've found ourselves in.

Take the Hobbit movie that was just released. The first part (however many minutes...maybe 15?) of the movie was rendered as a bridging scene; an undisclosed moment from the Lord of the Rings tracking back to the genesis of The Hobbit. This preamble connected us to the story of the Hobbit not in any direct, "charged with conflict" fashion; it was merely the establishment of Setting and Color...there was no Situation. Many people (not me, I rather enjoyed it...I thought it charming) had their primary complaint of the movie traced to this opener. They felt it was given far too much screen-time, it was forced and ultimately superfluous. In effect, they felt it was a Transition Scene shoehorned as an Action Scene.

Now consider the opener of Super 8. It was just a singular snapshot; the steel factory took down the number on the sign that gloated how many days (perhaps 1000 or so) since the last accident...and replaced it with 1. This was an extrarodinarily well done, impactful opener that shunted you directly into the conflict and in a moment's time.

There might be something there that makes sense of the various positions here.
 

There might be something there that makes sense of the various positions here.

Leaving aside the fact that as a Tolkien purist, the existance of a movie falsely presenting itself as being an adaptation of a beloved fantasy novel is not something I try to think about much, I don't think that anyone has asserted that scenes can't be artfully framed - as by a master of cinema like Stephen Speilburg or even compotent artist like J.J. Abrams - or conversely inartfully framed - as by a no talent hack like Peter Jackson. Stephen Speilburg is a master of letting a visual effect stand for 1000 words - a movie like Jurassic Park is filled with the sort of visual dialogue with the audience that you are pointing out in 'Super 8'.

As an art form, I think that cinema is at a much more mature state than PnP RPGs (which isn't to say that a lot of great cinema is actually being made). The fundamentals of what makes for good cinema is pretty well understood, albiet there has been sadly too little focus on cinema as great story telling and too much on 'artful framing'. French cinema is for instance filled with extraordinarily well framed shots serving terrible, dry, poorly paced, often nihilistic, and gimmicky story telling. But at least we can say something like that about cinema. I don't know that we can even make reasonable assessments about the state of PnP RPGs as art. Nobody records PnP RPG sessions, and when they do that isn't the experience of a PnP RPG session - but merely the rather dull movie of same. Perhaps we first need to learn how to make an artful movie of an RPG session or otherwise learn how to create a reproducable RPG session before we can begin to study them as art.

We can frequently study PJ's movies as examples of what not to do in making a movie, but they often succeed at some level anyway because of the brilliant work of custumers, set decorators, CGI artists, concept artists (Howe and Lee, for example), and the occassional almost accidental resemblence they have to the works of JRR Tolkien to see how great material can be rendered merely adequate. And we can look at a particular scene in Jurassic Park - like a cup of water vibrating - and see how those moments elevate otherwise pedestrian material to some level of greatness. But I'm not sure that there is a 1 to 1 relationship between what works in a movie and what works in an RPG session. Certainly at some level its all story telling arts, and a good story remains a good story regardless of medium it is transferred to, but there are so many differences between cinema as a medium and PnP RPGs as a medium - more even than there is between a movie and a novel - that it's not at all clear how you go about making a story in an RPG in the most artful manner. Maybe you can or even ought to do things in the PnP RPG that would be wrong in cinema. Certainly I know that there are things you can and maybe ought to do in a novel that don't exactly translate to PnP RPGs, and things about novels that can be the essential features of the novel that you cannot do in a movie and have it come out right. Consider for example how tricky Dune - a novel that depends on internal dialogue - is to adapt to a movie - where internal dialogue violates just about every good practice of movie making. Or sense it is now in production, consider how tricky the extremely critical opening scenes of Ender's Game are to adapt to a movie when you can't have Ender's insightful internal commentary informing the reader of the deeper currents of the scene. I shudder to think what the hacks are going to do to that (including sadly OSC himself, who among other things doesn't show to me he really knows screen plays).

I really loathe a lot that comes out of Forge, because I think it is flat out wrong. But at the same time I greatly admire the attempt and effort involved in creating a theory of RPGs as art. Even if I disagree with the conclusions, the thought process involved is a thing of worth.

Right now the art is young. It's great to see RPGs as art coming out - the original 'Mass Effect' in the world of computer games. But even in Mass Effect, much of the power of the game comes from good cinematic art. Not to put to fine of a point on it, but the RPG side of things in Mass Effect - the things unique to RPG story telling - is rather less artfully done and I think it is ultimately in that that the fans were often greatly disappointed by Mass Effect 3.

Anyway, the tl;dr version of this is: I'm not sure it simplifies the argument to transform it to the question of, "How do you create an artful RPG session?" I know it has something to do with meaningful choices, player agency, and creating a great shared mental space along with and in addition to all the things that makes for a good story generally, but I'm not sure anyone has the answer to that yet.
 

For many, the LotR movies are a true work of art and it is arrogant not to mention rude for you to present your views as if they were universally accepted. Please don't. Especially when it insults the director like that. Thanks.
 

@Celebrim Thats a very insightful post and I don't disagree with much (except I love Tolkein and I love the LotR movies and The Hobbit) of it. However, the issues you're addressing therein are much more broad than I was attempting to focus on so I probably didn't do a good job of unpacking my angle. I was specifically considering three elements of scenes that I think do apply to TTRPGs; (1) the nature of information conveyance and (2) its immediate relevance to conflict, both with respect to (3) pacing.

Consider those two scenes as TTRPG scenes:

- The Hobbit scene is primarily color and establishment of setting continuity. It lasts a very long time relative to the other. Those engaging with the scene might ask themselves (as movie viewers have regarding this very scene); "Uhhhh, whats the point?" or "yeah, I get it...can we move on already?" This might be an exploration scene (an Inn, a Wilderness Crossing, a Gate Guard Interrogation) framed as Action Scene that someone (such as Hussar) isn't interested in engaging with to the degree they're interested in engaging with Action Scenes. They might think it feels like they're in a debate with someone who is "filibustering/stalling" or "wandering aimlessly for a point." They want this scene to be a hand-waved Transition Scene (quick, efficient conveyance of information or setting continuity and then move on to the central conflict).

- Whereas in the Super-8 scene, its impossible for the surveyor to ask those questions because the point is front and center, punches you in the mouth with information conveyance relevant to the central conflict of the movie and it is over in a flash (but it stays with you). In the movie that tiny moment is an Action Scene and it can serve the purpose of the same in a TTRPG. However, the difference would be that in a TTRPG it would need to be treated as the opener, framing the Action Scene such that the PCs can engage with, mechanically resolve, and establish the forward-moving content. Perhaps the TTRPG analog to the Super-8 Action Scene would be something akin to the players seeking out a specific person central to the conflict as she has turned up missing...and upon arrival to the site where she works, they see this sign...investigation ensues > conflict resolution > story emerges. Its hard to imagine the questions of "Uhhhh, whats the point?" or "yeah, I get it...can we move on already?" manifesting in this scenario.

Yes, artful crafting is certainly front and center here. But artful crafting has specific metrics through which we "measure" the crafter's proficiency; I would say those metrics are (1) the nature of information conveyance and (2) its immediate relevance to conflict, both with respect to (3) pacing. Movies, games, scenes "drag" because the fiction is poorly rendered without proper heed to these metrics. Why do we hate movies with obfuscatory plots that are eventually conveyed by way of "information dump/expository dialogue"? We hate it because that should be conveyed via legitimate Action Scene (or scenes) that draw us in with tension, suspense, forcing emotional investment (in TTRPG terms we would be engaging with the content and actually establishing a way forward...resolving the conflict)...not a weak Transition Scene because they couldn't figure out how to formulate an appropriate Action Scene (or scenes) that leaves us cold, flat, and uninvested.

Its the Action Scene mis-framed as Transition Scene or Transition Scene mis-framed as Action Scene that becomes the issue.
 

Its the Action Scene mis-framed as Transition Scene or Transition Scene mis-framed as Action Scene that becomes the issue.

To be perfectly honest, I think that the confusion is that we are even using the terms 'Action Scene' and 'Transition Scene' at all. I'm not sure that I agree that there are only two types of scenes in an RPG. I'm not sure that I agree that the term 'scene' has as much meaning in an RPG as it has in a movie or play where we can speak concretely about the existance of a static set or of a length of film which was recorded. I'm fairly sure that in a movie or a novel there are more than two kinds of scenes, and they aren't 'transition' and 'action'. I'm not sure that even if the terms 'Action Scene' and 'Transitiion Scene' have real meaning, that the meaning is really all that relevant. If there turns out to be 1 type of 'Transition Scene', and 8 types of highly distinct and diverse scenes we are lumping into the 'Action Scene' category that this claim that 'Transition Scene' is the one thing that is not like the others is either valid or interesting. I think that they may be a distinction like 'Tragedy' and 'Comedy' which sounds really good on the surface, but turns out in practice to oversimplify things (Shakespeare riffs hard on the possibly wrong headed desire to label everything into simplistic categories in Hamlet) or maybe even misses the point (is all of human emotion renderable down to happy/sad?). And heck, I think 'Tragedy' and 'Comedy' just might be _more_ useful as a way to talk about things than 'Action' and 'Transition'.

It's not a distinction I find particularly useful for describing the way I game. It's not something I have in mind when I'm creating or preparing. It's not a distinction that the players draw about the scenes that they are in. I can go along with it because I think I understand the intent, but I'm not sure that once the conversation gets sticky, that part of the problems in understanding aren't the results of the arbitrary way we've tried to label things. Labels should clarify; they shouldn't serve to obstruct understanding.

I believe that having been provided that as a framework, some tables do think about scenes as transition scenes or action scenes and as part of their table social contract agree implicitly or explicitly to treat those scenes differently. And I believe that they find that framework useful. But when I look at that, at some level I find how those scenes were labelled completely artibitrary and the real distinguishing factor between them is in fact that they were so labelled. I don't accept that there is some deep fundamental truth to the labels.
 

Its the Action Scene mis-framed as Transition Scene or Transition Scene mis-framed as Action Scene that becomes the issue.

IMHO, a large part of this 'conflict of position' around [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] is that he assumed that he was entering a Transition Scene, whether it was positioned or not as an Action Scence. If we were playing MHRP or TOR there would be no ambiguity, but in DND (even 4e) there is less obvious demarcation.

At this point we have to trust that the GM/DM/Nararrator/Watcher will obide by the contract that if there is really nothing interesting to the PC story, no challenge or reward outcome that propels the plot, the we can move to the next Action Scene.

If the PCs have a method to avoid the scene (Teleportation) so be it, if the plot needs to return the desert (because there is something critical to the PC story) so be it, but if the PCs cannot avoid the scene (ie they have to travel through it) then the players need to abide by their side of the social contract and see what happens.

Personally, I like to use either Challenges or simple Consequences, as the currency for this different focus (non turn based tactics) of play. A Challenge is as it sounds, a skill challenge to be overcome; A Consequence is a simple cost that is meant to represent "what happened" during the Transition Scence, a cost that is applied at the start of the next Action Scene (usally cost of HPs, of Recovery/HS, use of a daily).

Depending how the Challenge proceeds (if the players take that option), we may drop into tactical play for combat or exploration.

(To be honest, explicity using this approach fro me is new and based on how things are handled in MHRP, Cortex Plus and lesser extent TOR; of course [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] have gone a long way to helping me understand how to shape my game with this approach.)
 

It's not a distinction I find particularly useful for describing the way I game... Labels should clarify; they shouldn't serve to obstruct understanding. But when I look at that, at some level I find how those scenes were labeled completely arbitrary and the real distinguishing factor between them is in fact that they were so labeled .

For me, reading games like Marvel Heroes and The One Ring, codified this separation language very clearly in terms of how play is different between play in the rounds and play between the rounds (be they "turns", "encounter breaks", or "short rests").

My experience was the rules traditionally in D&D are very focused "play in the rounds", the things we do in those round by round counts, be that combat, skill checks, roleplaying with NPCs. In the "between the rounds" there are very few rules, time is not really a measured game element, and the actions (excepting spell casting) are not really detailed. And I believe that these are very different gaming experiences, no matter the table.

Sure, for many years I hand waved Transition Scenes, and any time I wanted to drop into an Action Scene would shift from casual roleplay to “Initiative” or ask for some form of surprise check or notice skill check. But, that was me calling all the pacing shots.
As I said, I’m still learning how to best apply these techniques to my table, but the First Step was realizing that there are different Scenes in terms of pacing, expectation and ultimate risk/reward.

I don't accept that there is some deep fundamental truth to the labels.

To be honest, I don’t think there is a fundamental truth either, just a useful label for describing different periods of play style.
 

To be perfectly honest, I think that the confusion is that we are even using the terms 'Action Scene' and 'Transition Scene' at all. I'm not sure that I agree that there are only two types of scenes in an RPG.

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Labels should clarify; they shouldn't serve to obstruct understanding.

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But when I look at that, at some level I find how those scenes were labelled completely artibitrary and the real distinguishing factor between them is in fact that they were so labelled. I don't accept that there is some deep fundamental truth to the labels.

This is how I'm using the terms (which is pretty orthodox). I find they have utility:

Action Scene: A scene that establishes, engages and resolves a conflict/situation, that is central to the ongoing rising climax, with either failure, success or complication with respect to the ultimate resolution of that rising climax.

Transition Scene: A scene that establishes color and setting continuity or serves as a respite/recovery/regrouping period for the players.

IMHO, a large part of this 'conflict of position' aro
und @Hussar is that he assumed that he was entering a Transition Scene, whether it was positioned or not as an Action Scence. If we were playing MHRP or TOR there would be no ambiguity, but in DND (even 4e) there is less obvious demarcation.

This is a crucial point. When I describe two styles of play I use the terms serial, open world exploration and closed-scene based. The clarity of the line of demarcation (as you so elegantly put it) is the informing quality. That line of demarcation in a serial, open world exploration game (due to style and system emphasis; resource duration, etc) is considerably more obscured (sometimes completely) than in a closed-scene based game.

4e has its platform of resolution based almost exclusively as closed, conflict-charged vignettes and transitional scenes between those; Combat resolution as encounter/Action Scene, Non-combat conflict resolution as Skill Challenge encounter/Action Scene, recovery of HP/Encounter Powers and Healing Surges/Dailies as Transition Scene, establishment of color/setting continuity, transience, or the use of preparatory/planning resources (Rituals et al) as Transition Scene. However. It does provide the tools to drift the game toward, at least in part, serial, open world exploration by way of multi-scene spanning resources and system tools (Rituals, Martial Practices, Disease/Condition Track, the component of play whereby Healing Surge attrition paces the day and threatens PCs)

The rest of your post is spot on and I agree with all of it We use Transition Scenes from a "lost" Action Scene very similarly; narrative complications + strategic resource consequences for the group.
 

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