D&D 5E Simulacrum and True Polymorph

Fanaelialae said:

I'm just unclear what benefit creating inert duplicates of yourself that are sealed inside a container, and then polymorphing that container (with inert body inside it) into a creature is supposed to accomplish. They're only duplicates in the loosest sense.

You should also decide what will occur if the original dies. Does the clone spell fail because the vessel was polymorphed? Does the original's soul enter the first (or last) clone made such that he now has hundreds of lives (careful with this one, since players with a lot of time might be able to do the same at very high levels)? Does the strain of having that many clones shatter the original soul, and each clone activates but is insane due to receiving merely a fractured shard of the original soul? The simplest answer would be to simply rule that a creature can only have one clone at a time (although that admittedly doesn't help you create a multitude of duplicates).

One option might be that the wizard in question researched a new spell to accomplish exactly what he needs. Maybe it's a variant of true polymorph that makes copies of the caster out of inanimate objects. Or a variant of Clone where, once mature, the clone body becomes active (albeit without a soul). Frankly, this is the route I would go. Since researching new spells is 'legal', your rules lawyers won't have a leg to stand on. If they want to be able to do the same thing, they can take the time and expense to research the same spell too.

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Leatherhead said:

If I was a high level Necromancer with hundreds, if not thousands of years experience, I would just make up a new ritual spell to create my own horde of biological copies.
Seriously, that's what Wizards do, especially when they are NPCs, it's more efficient. Then if you want the PC's to have that kind of power for whatever bizarre reason, you just give them the Necromancer's spell book at the end of the day.

But the more important question, is why? What is the endgame here? A bunch of Decoys, A cult? I don't think cults work if the creatures don't have souls to begin with.

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That's why I was wondering about true polymorph. Couldn't the Sims cast True Polymorph on anything and make real copies of the Master?
At nearly the same CR rating?

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Balfore said:

That's why I was wondering about true polymorph. Couldn't the Sims cast True Polymorph on anything and make real copies of the Master?
At nearly the same CR rating?

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True Polymorph said:

If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or its level, if the target doesn't have a challenge rating)

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Nope.


Anyway, I could think of something interesting here involving a Necromancer seeding his imperfect duplicates into the local populaces over the years in order to establish a living bloodline as a magical focus of some kind, with perhaps the long term plan of becoming a god once he mind-controls the masses of people that are "tainted" with his blood. And having one of the PC's end up being one of the duplicates themselves for added kick.


But what is your idea here? What is the purpose of having bunches of clones? Just to have a bunch of the same guy everywhere so you can run the same combat encounter more than once?

Leatherhead said:

Nope.


Anyway, I could think of something interesting here involving a Necromancer seeding his imperfect duplicates into the local populaces over the years in order to establish a living bloodline as a magical focus of some kind, with perhaps the long term plan of becoming a god once he mind-controls the masses of people that are "tainted" with his blood. And having one of the PC's end up being one of the duplicates themselves for added kick.


But what is your idea here? What is the purpose of having bunches of clones? Just to have a bunch of the same guy everywhere so you can run the same combat encounter more than once?

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It's rather lengthy, but here goes ;-)

.. but here is the backstory, on which I am drawing a blank...I have alot to work with, but I cant funnel it down to where i need to go...

So, I'm working on this final EPIC battle, with PCs that are 20+Boon, and all have a gem in their body that turns them into a living artifact...(so spells that originate from a caster will work thru an anti-magic field...but weapons and armor will not).
We've have never played beyond 20, so I took it upon myself to piggy back on the end of Princes of the Apocalypse.
After they have killed the multitude of cultists, this will feed the undead army of my epic villain.
The story began when the previous DM ruined the story of a PC i had played years ago, and has been since turned into a villain (which was fine).. he separated a spirit/shared entity leaving him to fulfill his own destiny (something I didnt want).
So, I'm running the follow up campaign to 'fix' the error... and making him a continuous threat for ages to come (of course we will have to take years for him to return to his full strength, which is fine).
So I thought it would be a good time to play an epic level campaign-beyond 20+boon.
There will be 10 PCs, all with a boon (each player playing 2 of their level 20 PCs whos stories are not complete).
I'm just needing ideas for an epic and memorable battle that will be talked about for years-in game and out
This is my first campaign and havent DMd anything that really mattered (one other time with this group, but it was a failure... I thought).

By the end of the campaign, the main PCs will have a title that goes with guarding rips in reality and preventing OWC's (Other Worldly Creatures) from coming into this world. But, there will also be gates that open the world to other game world settings (Eberon, Greyhawk, Sci-Fi, Steampunk, Wild West...etc...) Mainly because we have played in this world for so long- our older PCs are NPCs and there arent many Legendary items left in the game, but also to allow for crossover characters from other realms and worlds.

At the end-The Boss (my Necromancer) will fade away for a multitude of years before showing back up.
But this time, The Boss used the PCs to leave a trail of death all thru PotA. (by using another Players character who has since ascended to a Keeper of Time ultimate Chronomancer to be locked in a struggle between Order (time) and Chaos (Cthulhu), he is biding the PCs some time to keep Chaos from destroying the world, but the effects of Madness are beginning to show up in a multitude of places).

So, while all that is going on, my Boss is taking advantage of the time to create his world of undead that he can use to rule the world. (this is also after the Out of the Abyss, when a moon was summoned and raised the tide and killed more people-more potential for undead...I used this 'new moon' to be the be a place where Cthulhu was imprisoned and banished long ago by the old gods... guess what... he was summoned back ).

When the moon was summoned, it brought with it a propecy of the 4 horsemen (I found a great homebrew for the horsemen, who were all shown on 4 different tapestries in the cave at Lance Rock at the beginning of PotA... when they later went to visit that cave, the tapestries looked as though they could be walked into)

So, thats the backstory... trying to put it all together now...
I havent put together the Horsemen story
I havent put together the Boss fight

...struggling

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Balfore said:

That's why I was wondering about true polymorph. Couldn't the Sims cast True Polymorph on anything and make real copies of the Master?
At nearly the same CR rating?

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It won't work with an object because the maximum CR that an object can become is CR 9 and your Necro has to be higher level if he's casting True Polymorph (even if you go by CR, the Archmage from the MM is CR 12 and your Necro should be in the same ballpark, so you're arguably out of luck there). You could potentially use a creature, but that requires powerful creatures (which you could circumvent by using Simulacrums).

That said, it's unclear whether you can duplicate a specific individual using True Polymorph. Meaning that while you could easily polymorph someone into an Orc, it's up to the DM whether polymorphing someone into Joe the Orc is possible. In the first case, the creature/object would only gain the capabilities of a generic orc from the Monster Manual.

In the second case, the creature/object would be capable of anything that Joe the Orc is capable of. I would be very careful of allowing the latter, since it could be abused. For example, your Necro runs out of spells. He cast True Polymorph upon himself, polymorphing himself into a version of himself with full hp and full spells. Or better yet, he does this in advance and allows it to become permanent. Then when he runs low on spells he casts Dispel Magic upon himself, dispelling True Polymorph and regaining all of his hp and spells. He now has another True Polymorph in reserve in case he runs low again.

It's abusive; just for starters casting a 9th level spell shouldn't be able to restore that spell slot (along with everything else). As such, I (as a DM) would rule that duplicating individuals using True Polymorph cannot be done. It's probably not something you want your players doing.

If this character has had a long time to prepare, why not simply allow him to have researched a way to create clones of himself (not the Clone spell)? Then he can simply train his clone apprentices to be high-level necromancers.

Also, I read the backstory, but I don't see how the clones play into it. If they're simply part of the epic boss fight then Simulacrums (or any other monster, such as powerful undead creatures) ought to work fine. If you're worried about the Necro being ganked, a single (well hidden) Clone should be sufficient to ensure his return (since upon death his soul will immediately animate the Clone body).

The end game is an army of powerful spellcasters under your control.

The simulacrums would have a slot fewer each gen anyway, so no army even if it worked. That said, Sim is indeed an illusion. True polymorph works on an object too, but you only become a creature within the limitations of the spell (up to CR 9 I believe).

Fanaelialae said:

In the second case, the creature/object would be capable of anything that Joe the Orc is capable of. I would be very careful of allowing the latter, since it could be abused. For example, your Necro runs out of spells. He cast True Polymorph upon himself, polymorphing himself into a version of himself with full hp and full spells.

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True polymorph allows you to turn one kindof creature into another kind of creature.

"Necromancer with full spells" is not a "kind of creature". You could not, for example, cast true polymorph on a dire wolf (CR1), and turn it into a level 1 orc barbarian. You'd get an orc. The class levels are not part of what kind of creature it is.

I might add that it can work for an object. And if you say the simulacrum is an object than why cast simulacrum at all? Just turn an object into the creature. Note also that you can't turn an object into another object with True Polymorph.

I often have my high level wizard cast Simulacrum then True Poly that Simulacrum into a Planetar. I never do the Simulacrum of a Simulacrum thing, because the way I see it your Simulacrum gets your caster AFTER the spell is cast and hence they run out of spell slots pretty quick. And I think it's tacky.