D&D 5E What is the most powerful spell?

snickersnax · Oct 9, 2017

Stalker0 said:
Magic Mouth (Change to 1st level spell). This is mainly just a fun spell or good for dungeon design. There is nothing wrong with it, but also no need for it to be 2nd level. It would be just fine as a 1st level spell.

I guess I'm the only one who thinks that magic mouth isn't just a great spell, its a world changing spell on the order of fly. In addition to be incredibly versatile for delivering messages (degrees, notifications, inducements, threats, warnings, taunts and insults), its triggering effect gives it great sentinel abilities. The fact that is PERMANENT is what takes this spell over the top. Every 10 minutes, the spell can repeat its message forever!

Depending on the situation this can be useful for advertisements, gathering information, annoying someone into taking impulsive action, broadcasting secrets that someone would rather not have revealed, planting doubts about leadership and other propaganda campaigns.

Given enough of these spells scripted conversation is possible. Arguably a weapon of warning can be constructed with the use of this spell alone.

The potential for this spell to modify behavior in players, monsters, NPC's and DM's through positive and/or negative reinforcement techniques or hypnotic scripting outside of the game rules is largely unexplored by most players.

snickersnax · Oct 9, 2017

Yaarel said:
Thanks for pointing that out. The data base is missing the paragraphs about interrogation (less important)

"Questions verbally directed at the target creature naturally shape the course of its thoughts, so this spell is particularly effective as part of an interrogation."

This seems really important to me, because it suggests that questions and conversation can be designed to lead the person's surface thoughts to reveal the information you are seeking. In which case, the person would be unaware of the probe and the information would be available without a deeper probe. The deep probe is only necessary for uncovering motive or emotional state.

Yaarel said:
On the one hand, the interrogated target knows its mind is being probed, and will intentionally try to suppress surface thoughts about the hidden information. (It reminds of the scene from Village of the Damned, where the protagonist plants a bomb to kill telepathic children. The children probe his mind while he resists, and they dont penetrate to the truth until it is too late.) ‘Surface thoughts’ can be lies, attempts to use the Deception skill.

My understanding of Detect Thoughts is that the target of the spell is only aware of it if the caster attempts a deep probe

Yaarel said:
Meanwhile, the Insight skill can be used to discern specific details of information (at a higher DC). Just as in reallife ‘cold reading’, you run into someone who perhaps glances oddly at your money pouch, or oppositely, seems to avoid glancing at the direction of the pouch, or any other of a number of clues about intention that usually remain unconscious.

"Insight. Your Wisdom (Insight) check decides whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone’s next move. Doing so involves gleaning clues from body language, speech habits, and changes in mannerisms."

I'm not sure how insight checks are even close to the information that detect thoughts can give. Where are there rules that insight gives "specific details of information"?

Yaarel said:
Since the poker player automatically knows the mind is being probed, the player will probably make a Deception check to bluff.

So I think it comes down to how the Detect Thoughts spells works. My reading of the spell doesn't have the poker player knowing that his mind is being read.

Yaarel · Oct 9, 2017

snickersnax said:
"Questions verbally directed at the target creature naturally shape the course of its thoughts, so this spell is particularly effective as part of an interrogation."

This seems really important to me, because it suggests that questions and conversation can be designed to lead the person's surface thoughts to reveal the information you are seeking. In which case, the person would be unaware of the probe and the information would be available without a deeper probe. The deep probe is only necessary for uncovering motive or emotional state.

Funny enough, I read the same words, ‘particularly effective’, to mean that it cannot be an auto-win, but is only useful. Thus skill checks for Deception and counter skill checks for Insight can still apply.

Earlier, where it says, ‘either way’ the target knows about the probe, is taken to mean, either ‘surface’ or ‘deep’, the target knows and can attempt to end to the spell.

There seems to me the possibility of reading surface thoughts, deciding not to probe deeper, and not to switch to an other mind, but rather to continue reading surface thoughts without spending any actions. In this situation, the target knows you are doing this and can attempt to end the spell.

Heh, in any case, I am glad you guys feel the Insight skill is powerful. I was worried about other skills being much better choices in comparison. I am happy − very happy − that a noncombat social skill can be such an excellent and effective choice.

Yaarel · Oct 9, 2017

snickersnax said:
"Insight. Your Wisdom (Insight) check decides whether you can determine the true intentions of a creature, such as when searching out a lie or predicting someone’s next move. Doing so involves gleaning clues from body language, speech habits, and changes in mannerisms."

I'm not sure how insight checks are even close to the information that detect thoughts can give. Where are there rules that insight gives "specific details of information"?

Take for example the situation of the poker player. You can use Insight checks to know whether the player is currently happy or unhappy with his hand, to what degree, and even ‘predict’ whether the player intends to draw more cards, or consider folding. If you yourself are skilled at this particular game, you can discern a fairly detailed assessment of what kind of cards he is holding.

Even if using the Detect Thoughts spell, the poker player can intentionally use Deception skill checks to fake surface thoughts, thus trick the caster.

snickersnax · Oct 9, 2017

Yaarel said:
Earlier, where it says, ‘either way’ the target knows about the probe, is taken to mean, either ‘surface’ or ‘deep’, the target knows and can attempt to end to the spell.

There seems to me the possibility of reading surface thoughts, deciding not to probe deeper, and not to switch to an other mind, but rather to continue reading surface thoughts without spending any actions. In this situation, the target knows you are doing this and can attempt to end the spell.

After looking at the poorly worded language of the spell, I decided that "either way" referred to whether the person makes the saving throw or not for a deep probe, the person becomes aware of the <deep> probe. scanning surface thoughts is not a "probe".

This interpretation seemed consistent with the way that creatures (like dopplegangers and mind flayers) would also read thoughts. There is no reason that a surface thought detection should arouse suspicion unless the scanning person gives away the fact.

Example: using detect thoughts to discover the hidden identity of a local crime lord after catching one of his lackeys.
"What is the secret identity of your boss?"

detect thoughts surface scan: " I can't let them know its Bob"
target says nothing
" How long have you known it's Bob"
"crap, he's reading my mind"
vs.
insight check: natural 20
You're pretty sure he know the identity, but he's not talking...

Yaarel · Oct 9, 2017

snickersnax said:
After looking at the poorly worded language of the spell, I decided that "either way" referred to whether the person makes the saving throw or not for a deep probe, the person becomes aware of the <deep> probe. scanning surface thoughts is not a "probe".

But logically, that interpretation of ‘either way’ ends up with a sentence that makes no sense. It already says, if the Wisdom save succeeds versus a ‘deep’ probe, then the spell ‘ends’. So, it makes no sense to say: ‘either way’, if the target has already ended the spell with a Wisdom save, the target can end the spell once again with an Intelligence check.

The only way to make sense of the poorly worded language is: whether you do a ‘surface’ probe or a ‘deep’ probe, ‘either way’, the target can end it with an Intelligence check.

snickersnax · Oct 10, 2017

Yaarel said:
But logically, that interpretation of ‘either way’ ends up with a sentence that makes no sense. It already says, if the Wisdom save succeeds versus a ‘deep’ probe, then the spell ‘ends’. So, it makes no sense to say: ‘either way’, if the target has already ended the spell with a Wisdom save, the target can end the spell once again with an Intelligence check.

The only way to make sense of the poorly worded language is: whether you do a ‘surface’ probe or a ‘deep’ probe, ‘either way’, the target can end it with an Intelligence check.

OK, so this is clearly not the way the language makes sense. I have three arguments:

1)"... and unless you shift your attention to another creature’s thoughts, the creature can use its action on its turn to make an Intelligence check contested by your Intelligence check; if it succeeds, the spell ends." -
PHB p233. Meaning if you only do a surface scan, the target doesn't get a chance to end it with an intelligence check.

2) "Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell at all. An effect like crackling lightning is obvious, but a more subtle effect, such as an attempt to read a creature’s thoughts, typically goes unnoticed, unless a spell says otherwise." - PHB p204

3)https://rpg.stackexchange.com/quest...-the-target-aware-when-not-doing-a-deep-probe

Where you will find a more detailed discussion of the wording, but the general consensus is similar to my interpretation.

Stalker0 · Oct 10, 2017

Nebulous said:
How do you all feel about Spike Growth at 2nd level?

So if you hit a monster in the middle of the radius, it will take 8d4 damage in order to move out of that. Thats a bit lower than the 8d6 for the 3rd level fireball spells. If however you get them to go through the whole thing, that is 16d4 damage...quite a bit more than fireball. That said, it is difficult terrain, and can be a trap to boot. Casting this on a melee type, he is going to have a bad day.

I could see the case for 3rd level.

Stalker0 · Oct 10, 2017

Yaarel said:
@Stalker0, @Nebulous
You know? I would rather have Hideous Laughter rather than Plant Growth, any day of the week.

I think plant growth is one of those spells that seems minor until you see it in its full glory. The thing is, this spell offers a lot of things other spells do not.

1) Its instantaneous. You cannot dispel it. It just happens.
2) No concentration. Many of the other spells in this list take concentration.
3) Its difficult/difficult terrain. 1/4 your normal speed...that is incredibly slow.
4) It has a huge radius, 100 foot radius....even some high level spells don't have that kind of radius.

Basically this spell is a ranged attackers dream and it combos very well with the other spells here. You know what sucks more than spike stone? Spike stones in a plant growth field.

In the right area, you can bomb the crap out of a melee focus creature. This is an opening spell against the Tarrasque! If you cast this on a melee creature with 30 foot speed, it will literally take it 7 rounds to get out of it! If your party hasn't pin-cushioned the heck out of it by then you are doing something very wrong.

The thing about druid and cleric spell is it is completely fine for them to be very situational, as they can swap out spells as they see fit. If your party knows they are going after melee focused monsters in a wooded area, this spell can be gold. I wouldn't ever take it otherwise...but that's fine, as I will take it when I need it.

Stalker0 · Oct 10, 2017

Yaarel said:
@Stalker0

Re Detect Thoughts. Moreorless the Insight skill can do what this spell can do. Note, the 5e version of the spell cannot ‘detect creatures around you’. It can only target a creature that is within Close Range (30 feet), and the caster must be able to ‘see’ it.

All the spells in this thread rank depending on how good they are compared to other spells. It doesnt really matter which class is casting it. To help ensure a single standard metric to evaluate all of them, the Wizard class is considered the reference point, and is casting all of them. (Imagine there is a Thaumaturge tradition that accesses healing spells, similar to the way the Divine Soul of the Sorcerer class does.)

When evaluating a spell like Warding Bond, a Wizard is likely to avoid it because of the self-damage. But an Eldrich Knight with lots of hit points might employ it well. So the spell works well in this category. As an Eldrich Knight, looking at the Eldritch Knight category, which spells would you probably prefer over Warding Bond, and over which would you probably prefer Warding Bond? I have never seen Warding Bond chosen by a player, but your group seems to get alot of mileage out of it. I am thinking it is a ‘Not Bad’ choice for an Eldrich Knight spell?

I double checked the detect thoughts spell, and while it is only 30feet, it can in fact pass through barriers and detect creatures you cannot see. Moreso, if you detect them, you can focus in and detect their thoughts. Definitely something insight cannot do!

I understand your premise about a "universal barometer" but I will fiercely disagree with it. Its one thing to just rank spells, but when you actually are considering certain spells higher or lower than their base, there will be people that assume that the spell is "just bad", and that is not always true in the hands of the class meant to wield.

I will use the clerics prepare ability as a key note. Situational spells are garbage for a sorceror, but can be perfectly fine for a cleric who can swap to whatever he needs when the day comes. A melee oriented spell is garbage for a wizard, but might be fine and dandy for a cleric.

I don't feel you can just divorce the spell from the class so readily. All of that said, I am coming in to this at page 15 or so of the thread. If that's the way its going to be I will work within that constraint, I just think it provides a bad impression of certain spells that will not actually be the experience of players using those spells because of the class involved.

D&D 5E What is the most powerful spell?

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He Mage

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Legend

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Legend

Stalker0

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