D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

Hriston · Oct 26, 2017

Hussar said:
So, no, 3d6 in order has not been true for the general population in 3 editions now. I'm not sure what 2e said.

The thing is it has never been true in any edition, unless maybe it was in Basic after it split off from the main stream of the game's development.

Oofta · Oct 26, 2017

Hussar said:
Actually, that's not true. In three editions now, that has been refuted.

3ed - NPC's are given straight 10's unless they are Elite, in which case they use the Elite array. An NPC flat out cannot have a base stat higher than 15 (before level and racial adjustments of course).

4ed - NPC's, other than very specific individuals - are not given stats whatsoever. They have whatever skill bonus the DM feels is appropriate and that's it.

5ed - NPC's, other than specific individuals where stats can be rolled but aren't necessary - states that NPC's don't have stats at all.

So, no, 3d6 in order has not been true for the general population in 3 editions now. I'm not sure what 2e said.

There was no mention in the DMG of NPC ability scores that I could find in the 2E book. Even in the 1E book they mention generating like a PC, but don't use the full range unless it's appropriate to the class (e.g. strength for fighters).

Hussar · Oct 26, 2017

Hriston said:
The thing is it has never been true in any edition, unless maybe it was in Basic after it split off from the main stream of the game's development.

I agree. I was actually responding to the point that it hadn't been "refuted". It has, in fact, been flat out refuted in three editions so far. To the point where the idea of 3d6 being the baseline for generating population hasn't been true in a really, really long time, if it ever was. Claims of tradition don't really carry a whole lot of water when the tradition has been flat out contradicted, without question. Even if 3d6 in order was the way it was done, it certainly hasn't been done that way for three editions now.

Oofta · Oct 26, 2017

Hriston said:
The thing is it has never been true in any edition, unless maybe it was in Basic after it split off from the main stream of the game's development.

The AD&D book (published in 1979) is that last reference I can find. It states:

NON-PLAYER CHARACTERS
Non-Player Characters: You should, of course, set the ability scores of those NPCs you will use as parts of the milieu, particularly those of high level and power. Scores for high level NPC's must be high - how else could these figures have risen so high? Determine the ability scores of other non-player characters as follows.

General Characters: Roll 3d6 for each ability score as usual, but use average scoring by consider any 1 as a3 and any 6 as a 4.

Special Characters, including Henchmen: Roll 3d6 as for general characters, but allow the full range (3-18) except in the abilities which are germane to his or her profession, i.e. strength for fighters, etc. For all such abilities either use on of the determination methods used for player characters or add +1 to each die of the 3 rolled which scores under a 6.

You also have several methods for generating ability scores, such as rolling 6 sets of 3d6 for each ability, and so on.

But what a book published nearly 40 years ago has to do with 5E is still beyond me, other than a little bit of historical trivia.

Hriston · Oct 26, 2017

Oofta said:
The AD&D book (published in 1979) is that last reference I can find. It states:

NON-PLAYER CHARACTERS
Non-Player Characters: You should, of course, set the ability scores of those NPCs you will use as parts of the milieu, particularly those of high level and power. Scores for high level NPC's must be high - how else could these figures have risen so high? Determine the ability scores of other non-player characters as follows.

General Characters: Roll 3d6 for each ability score as usual, but use average scoring by consider any 1 as a3 and any 6 as a 4.

Special Characters, including Henchmen: Roll 3d6 as for general characters, but allow the full range (3-18) except in the abilities which are germane to his or her profession, i.e. strength for fighters, etc. For all such abilities either use on of the determination methods used for player characters or add +1 to each die of the 3 rolled which scores under a 6.

You also have several methods for generating ability scores, such as rolling 6 sets of 3d6 for each ability, and so on.

But what a book published nearly 40 years ago has to do with 5E is still beyond me, other than a little bit of historical trivia.

Are you saying this passage from the 1e DMG supports the so-called "truth" of rolling 3d6 for the scores of general characters to model the distribution of scores in the general population? Because that isn't what it says.

Oofta · Oct 26, 2017

Hriston said:
Are you saying this passage from the 1e DMG supports the so-called "truth" of rolling 3d6 for the scores of general characters to model the distribution of scores in the general population? Because that isn't what it says.

No. Quite the contrary - for the most part you just decide what the ability scores are for an NPC. If you do roll you average it out. It directly contradicts the "roll 3d6 for ability scores for all NPCs".

I don't have my truly old books any more but you can get some in PDF and they don't say anything about rolling 3d6 for all NPCs that I know of. There may be some supplement written in the 70s that talks about it or it could be just another myth. Since the AD&D book was published later, it would in theory take precedence.

Irregardless I don't see how it is relevant in any way shape or form. I use the rules for the current edition, not some supplement that was created by volunteers and handed out as a booklet (or whatever source it is that was being referenced).

Hriston · Oct 26, 2017

Oofta said:
No. Quite the contrary - for the most part you just decide what the ability scores are for an NPC. If you do roll you average it out. It directly contradicts the "roll 3d6 for ability scores for all NPCs".

Okay, just making sure. That's the same method I've been talking about for some time now.

I don't have my truly old books any more but you can get some in PDF and they don't say anything about rolling 3d6 for all NPCs that I know of. There may be some supplement written in the 70s that talks about it or it could be just another myth. Since the AD&D book was published later, it would in theory take precedence.

Irregardless I don't see how it is relevant in any way shape or form. I use the rules for the current edition, not some supplement that was created by volunteers and handed out as a booklet (or whatever source it is that was being referenced).

I don't think any source has been cited as supporting [MENTION=6799649]Arial Black[/MENTION]'s claim. He seems to think it's good enough to simply claim it as "truth".

Maxperson · Oct 26, 2017

Oofta said:
What's wrong with my math? Or is rolling 3d6 for ability scores even more unrealistic than I thought?

And yet it's still more realistic than point buy or arrays, where nobody in the entire world can be below an 8!!

Maxperson · Oct 26, 2017

Oofta said:
I never said strongest man in the world. From the definition of what ability scores mean, an 18 is as high as a person can normally achieve and is something many people can achieve.

I don't think it's realistic that in every village of 100 people you have someone who is at both extremes, it certainly doesn't seem right that you only need 18 people to get the extremes of any given ability score and wanted someone to double check the math. That's all.

So instead it's more realistic that every man, woman and child in the world has 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8? Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

Maxperson · Oct 26, 2017

Hussar said:
3ed - NPC's are given straight 10's unless they are Elite, in which case they use the Elite array. An NPC flat out cannot have a base stat higher than 15 (before level and racial adjustments of course).

Page 110 of the DMG states that average NPCs have average abilities(rolled on 3d6).

5ed - NPC's, other than specific individuals where stats can be rolled but aren't necessary - states that NPC's don't have stats at all.

It does not state that NPCs don't have stats at all. It only states that they aren't necessary to roll. The fact that you can roll stats, means that they do have stats, even if the DM doesn't bother to come up with numbers.

So, no, 3d6 in order has not been true for the general population in 3 editions now. I'm not sure what 2e said.

I don't know enough about 4e to speak to it's NPCs, but you are wrong about 3e and 5e.

D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth

Oofta

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Hussar

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Oofta

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Hriston

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Oofta

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Hriston

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Maxperson

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Maxperson

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

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