Cleric shenanigans (metaphysical, no right answers)

Sword of Spirit · May 4, 2019

Defining faith as different from belief is nonsense in my opinion. As [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] noted, the word faith has come to have variable connotations in modern usage, but I don't think there is really any substantial difference between the meanings of the terms that is useful for D&D purposes.

All belief is based on some sort of evidence, and we act on our beliefs constantly. We eat because we feel hungry and we believe we will feel less hungry if we eat something. In D&D it's no different. People see divine power exercised, and they act based on that. The less clear those manifestation are, the more disagreement there is over what they mean and how to act upon them. I really feel like we basically get into discussions about nothing when we start talking about faith in the context of D&D religion.

1) What do people think are the results of their actions with regards to the gods?
2) How devoted is a person to their gods?
3) Is there any necessary connection between 1 and 2?

Those questions are more relevant.

Celebrim · May 4, 2019

Scott Graves said:
So since there is actual PROOF of a gods power FAITH isn't needed. It's more like BELIEF. These sound like technicalities but faith is defined as belief without proof.

Well, technically, faith is not defined as belief without proof. It's a definition that has arisen relatively recently, and which certain communities promote, but that is not what faith means.

And even if it was, you don't understand the word "proof" either.

Consider the question, do you believe your wife will be faithful to you? That is, do you have faith in your wife? Will she keep faith with you? Suppose your answer that question "Yes." What proof could you offer that would be convincing to a skeptic? You cannot see the future, so how can you be sure? People are frequently deceived, so how do you know that you have not been? Can you perform an experiment and gain empirical evidence to prove such an assertion? Yet, many people would feel confident in answering questions like that with, "Yes.", because they believe that they have all the proof that they need.

Faith is not some esoteric thing. It's simply a confidence and trust. It may be - but is not always - a confidence in something for which no certainty is possible, but it is a confidence grounded in sufficient evidence.