BryonD
Hero
Exactly. This is what I immediately thought.
Of course, I was also a fan of Grim Tales, which took the class construction idea of D20 Modern and ran with it.
Pathfinder 2E Leveling Up
Exactly. This is what I immediately thought.
Of course, I was also a fan of Grim Tales, which took the class construction idea of D20 Modern and ran with it.
Henry
Autoexreginated
TwoSix
Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
If they can take the best parts of Pathfinder, and mix them with positive features of both 4e and 5e, I'm definitely on board.
CapnZapp
Legend
I'm afraid two of the most positive features of 5e
* simplified math (very few niggling +1s and -1s)
* a real attempt at fixing LFQW (Concentration obvs, but also fundamentally rejiggered spells)
remain unlikely.
Aldarc
Legend
I think that d20 Modern's level design, in many respects, influenced both Grim Tales and True20.
(I would love to see an updated True20, but I now wonder if the new PF2 system will be the better chassis than 5E to build off from.)
LFQW will likely not be quite as pronounced in PF2. There are a number of new features that already suggest that this will be curtailed somewhat: upcasting, stat caps, spellcasting and the action economy, etc.
CubicsRube
Hero
It sounds like martiials will be a bit more superhero than in 5e so lfqw should be less pronounced merely because fighters will become more like wizards basically. It remains to be seen if itll play out like that.
I do hope they work on fiddly modifiers as that was one of my niggest pet peeves amd likely to keep me away from pf2.
I dont mind pots of mods. But i dont see much advantage of x being +1 and y being plus +2, etc. Thays toi much to remember. If they standardise the mods for example a minor bi us could be +2 and a major could be +5, then you only need to remember those 2 numbers and add them up. You dont need to reference th le book to remember if your feat gives you a +2 or a +3, etc
I do hope they work on fiddly modifiers as that was one of my niggest pet peeves amd likely to keep me away from pf2.
I dont mind pots of mods. But i dont see much advantage of x being +1 and y being plus +2, etc. Thays toi much to remember. If they standardise the mods for example a minor bi us could be +2 and a major could be +5, then you only need to remember those 2 numbers and add them up. You dont need to reference th le book to remember if your feat gives you a +2 or a +3, etc
CapnZapp
Legend
I am not holding my breath.
3.5 and PF fixed exactly zero issues with d20. They just move some numbers around and added stuff.
5E is much more of a huge deal than people realize in fundamentally transforming the entire fighter-wizard balance. What it tells us is that to fix d20 LFQW you need massive change.
The question is: is this something Paizo can manage? Or will their good intentions get buried under the sheer weight of traditionalist sentiment?
It is still early days but so far it doesn't look too good. They do change stuff around at a much more fundamental level, sure, but will they really dare to take away the d20 Wizard's toys?
Aldarc
Legend
No one is asking you to hold your breath over the issue, but it would be nice if you weren't hyperventilating so much over it either.
I don't think that these situations are comparable to PF2. 3.5 and PF1 more or less promised backwards compatibility to 3.0 and 3.5, respectively, whereas PF2 has not. This gives PF2 more room to maneuver with their changes. (Also keeping in mind that PF2 and 5E are also catering to different fantasy niches, which is something that gets lost in the assumption that they are both aiming for a single playstyle within a single shade of D&D.)
Honestly, your exaggerations aside, 5E did not make that many "massive" changes to spellcasting. That's why it's still considered "familiar." Comparing the major changes related to spellcasting between 3.5e and 5e, 5e introduced a new concentration mechanic that reduced buff stacking, stat caps (which also affected fighters) and removed bonus spells based on stats, upcasting of spell slots, reduced over-reliance on spell slots through cantrip attack spells, and created a slightly modified pseudo-Vancian system. Collectively, this is not a lot, particularly since some of these systems had already been variously implemented in 3-4e.
You certainly seemed to have already cast your judgment early. I don't think that the scant information we have so far warrants this level of fear-mongering about PF2 and the LFQW issue, and I say this as someone who is also not a fan of QWs. At this point in filling out our puzzle, we haven't even finished the outer border frame, so we have little sense for how the various pieces will fit together. Consider the above innovations from 5e, for example. How many of those did we know from the beginning?
I'm not sure why you are speaking of this as some sort of grudge match to the death.
CapnZapp
Legend
Absolutely not so.
Compared to the hype around 3.5 and PF, the changes are absolutely massive.
Buff stacking is sorted. And you fail to even mention perhaps the greatest change - the way spells are reassigned spell levels.
These two changes mean 5E plays vastly different than d20. You no longer fly or teleport around with half a dozen buffs that create a vast gulf between buffed and unbuffed. Various utility spells have been levelled up significantly changing style and pace of play. Not relying on magical bonuses means few NPCs have lootable magic items.
Upcasting of spell slots - not getting "free" damage is a substantial change. While in itself not massive, taken as a part of a whole, definitely so. Stat caps and spell slots are not "massive", given bounded accuracy, I'll give you that.
Suggesting 5E doesn't bring something new to the table or that it's just a number of rehashed 3e and 4e innovations jumbled together vastly underestimate the impact of 5e.
That this still feels "familiar" is instead a testament to 5e's success, and more to my point, shines a stark light on the failure of 3.5 and PF to live up to the respective hype.
houser2112
Explorer
Stat caps and no bonus spells from stats (although your prep allotment is affected by stats) are minor changes. The new Concentration mechanic and requiring upcasting for spell effect augmentation is a huge departure from previous editions, and what I think you might be referring to when you say "slightly modified pseudo-Vancian system" (no more fire-and-forget) is even bigger. 4E is such a radical departure from the "norm" that I don't think you can really compare it in this context.
