D&D 5E In fact, INSERT RULES HERE was a key part of the 3rd edition, and it means 5th edition is still missing full support for this previous edition.

Hathorym

Explorer
You know, I think I agree with your thesis, but your view of the evidence suffers from not having very wide exposure.

Thank you for agreeing with me, but I am at a loss as to why you think I haven't had wide exposure.

I promise you, both from experience and from having spent years on EnWorld listening to people describing their game, that 3e and 4e were not pre-prepared food that always tasted the same.
I apologize, it was not my intention to claim all games were the same, but that the mechanics were more consistent across tables, as the system was designed to be.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, "How you prepare to play and thing about playing a system is at least as if not more important than the rules of the system."
I fully agree with this sentiment. However, I felt 3.5 and 4e to be restrictive for me as a DM. There was always a sense, for me, that I was required to explain situations mechanically.
 

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AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
When we’re talking about whole subsystems which used to be very detailed, not so much.
As I've recently posted in more length in another thread (quoting you, I'm sure you'll see it), that the system "used to be very detailed" doesn't actually mean anything - the 5th edition system can produce the same things without needing as many details, and that's not really anything to complain about.

"Oh noes! I can make up my own magic items just like before and figure out between my DM and I how much money and time it will take, but I don't have fiddly maths to do. My entire week is ruined!"

Edit to add: Also, magic items are "more-or-less personal subjects", since all factors about them - the saturation, the variety, the commonality of places to buy and/or sell - are completely different not just from one table to the next, but even from one campaign to the next at the same table. Even though they used to be presented as a "very detailed" (which means ultra-fiddly and obnoxious, if you ask me) sub-system.
 
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DaedalusX51

Explorer
My pet peeve, as mentioned many times, are the skills. Skills are woefully underdeveloped in 5E and I was really disappointed with the "stats are king" approach (which, in my book, translates to "natural talent is much more important than learning and training" - something I find to be patently false). I will not use 5E for an extended homebrew campaign until an official skills module is made (my players share this sentiment, they feel too constrained by the current system).


I'm just curious by what you mean with "stats are king" in regards to skills. Wouldn't a +5 bonus from you stat be trumped by your +6 or +12 bonus with expertise, which is what is representing your training in said skill?

Maybe you're looking at this differently than I.
 

Sammael

Adventurer
I'm just curious by what you mean with "stats are king" in regards to skills. Wouldn't a +5 bonus from you stat be trumped by your +6 or +12 bonus with expertise, which is what is representing your training in said skill?

Maybe you're looking at this differently than I.

A +5 bonus from a stat would be trumped only at 17th level (for non-Expertise skills), which means that the training is less important than natural ability for 85% of a character's adventuring career. Not to mention that the number of official adventures that support play at this level are currently zero, and the number of homebrew campaigns are likewise insignificant.

IIRC, only Bards and Rogues get expertise, and only for a limited number of skills, which makes it too limited to consider in the grand scheme of things.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I'm just curious by what you mean with "stats are king" in regards to skills. Wouldn't a +5 bonus from you stat be trumped by your +6 or +12 bonus with expertise, which is what is representing your training in said skill?
I suppose Expertise might be 'king' in that (20th level) example. But none of them really 'trump' the other - they don't overwhelm the d20 (ie to the point an untrained character couldn't hit a DC on a natural 20 that a trained one would make on a natural 1). In 3e, for instance, ranks at high level could, by themselves, overwhelm the d20.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Thank you for agreeing with me, but I am at a loss as to why you think I haven't had wide exposure.

Because you appeared to be claiming that the experience of play in 3e and 4e was consistent across tables.

I apologize, it was not my intention to claim all games were the same, but that the mechanics were more consistent across tables, as the system was designed to be.

That's a lesser and more defensible claim than the one I thought you were making, but again, I assure you that is not the case. Even if we just confined the discussion to RAW tables, I think we'd find major differences in how the game played on the basis of system mastery, aesthetics of play, which material was incorporated into the game officially or in practice, which material was considered hard and fast rules and which mere guidelines, rules interpretation, and whether they had skewed from RAW without considering it a major departure on the assumption 'everyone does it' ("we ignore encumbrance", "we ignore the favored class rules and never apply a penalty for multiclassing", "we don't track ammunition", "we ignore the cross class rules for skills", etc.)

And that's not even to get into things like the fungibility of wealth - "Can you turn all gold found into magic items freely?" - or the theories of scenario design employed by the DM or how heavily they relied on 'Rule Zero'. One of the biggest differences you'll find on the boards concerning 3e DMs is whether they took the approach, "Everything is forbidden except what is explicitly permitted." or "Everything is permissible except what is explicitly forbidden." That has huge implications for how a game plays because it determines what a valid proposition is in the proposition-fortune-resolution cycle. Two tables could be playing COMPLETELY different games just by adopting different stances on that unconsciously, while both think that they are playing RAW. Or speaking of validating proposition, two different tables could be playing COMPLETELY different games depending on whether, "I try to convince the Squire to let us enter the family tomb.", is accepted as a valid proposition by the GM. The D&D rules themselves do not actually tell you how to validate propositions (there are some games that do, but D&D generally isn't one of them). Don't get me started on the divergence you find in groups over valid search propositions. We've had threads going 100's of posts over whether or not, "I search the room", should be taken as a valid proposition in the 3e rules.

And then there is a question of 'no myth' versus 'heavy prep'. Those games in practice won't play remotely the same even nominally using the same rules.

I fully agree with this sentiment. However, I felt 3.5 and 4e to be restrictive for me as a DM. There was always a sense, for me, that I was required to explain situations mechanically.

This is how you are thinking about playing the game, and not how the rules actually tell you to play the game. There were (and are) 3e and 4e DMs who would disagree with that assessment. Indeed, as mechanistic as I find 4e, there are DMs on the boards that played it as a largely freefom Indy style game simply by thinking about the rules in a different way. Meanwhile, I play 3e in many ways very much like a 1e style game by thinking about it differently.
 

DaedalusX51

Explorer
A +5 bonus from a stat would be trumped only at 17th level (for non-Expertise skills), which means that the training is less important than natural ability for 85% of a character's adventuring career. Not to mention that the number of official adventures that support play at this level are currently zero, and the number of homebrew campaigns are likewise insignificant.

IIRC, only Bards and Rogues get expertise, and only for a limited number of skills, which makes it too limited to consider in the grand scheme of things.

I can see how that could feel like an issue as you play.

I think in the long run it actually makes a bit of sense. I know people who are pretty good at drawing with no formal training (Ability with no skill training), I also know artists who went to art school that just don't have the ability (Skill training with a poor ability score), and I also know some amazing artists that also have formal training (Ability and skill training).

It just seems that you do not like how long it takes to get better at your skills in 5E, and I guess that is understandable.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Because you appeared to be claiming that the experience of play in 3e and 4e was consistent across tables. That's a lesser and more defensible claim than the one I thought you were making, but again, I assure you that is not the case.
Probably more consistent than in 5e (outside AL) or the classic game. RAW was hammered out on-line and a lot of stock put in it. 'Core only,' WotC only, and E6 were popular variations.

But, JMHX, when I walked into a classic game, the first thing I'd ask is what variants the DM was using, and if he said 'none,' I wouldn't believe him. ;) 3e era, I'd ask what things he was allowing, and be a little surprised if he had anything too original, rather than just a list of books that were OK or banned.

I don't expect everyone had exactly that experience, but 5e is intentionally calling back the feel of the classic game in emphasizing DM Empowerment, including freedom of the DM to mod the rules as much or little as he likes.

That's a lesser and more defensible claim than the one I thought you were making, but again, I assure you that is not the case. Even if we just confined the discussion to RAW tables, I think we'd find major differences in how the game played on the basis of system mastery, aesthetics of play, which material was incorporated into the game officially or in practice, which material was considered hard and fast rules and which mere guidelines... etc.
That's a lesser and more reasonable objection to his lesser and more reasonable claim than I thought you were going for, too. ;) Yes, even if sticking to RAW, you can get different experiences out of a game like D&D.

This is how you are thinking about playing the game, and not how the rules actually tell you to play the game.
Nod. Hazzard of generalization, I guess. In the classic era the hobby was much less connected, so I'm sure regional variation was pronounced, but my experience of it was heavy on variants and DM authority. In 3e there was a RAW-affirming zietgiest, while 5e is striving to evoke the classic game and Empower the DM. But those were/are all ultimately matters of attitude. Just in certain eras certain attitudes may have seemed much more prevalent than others.
 

Hathorym

Explorer
Because you appeared to be claiming that the experience of play in 3e and 4e was consistent across tables.

Meanwhile, I play 3e in many ways very much like a 1e style game by thinking about it differently.
I want to thank you for taking the time to give such a well-considered response. I feel as if I actually have been somewhat myopic in my outlook of the game as a whole and your solid trouncing has encouraged me to question some of my presumptions.

To be honest, my attempt to be flippant and comedic has resulted in a backlash of self-reflection. I hate that.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Probably more consistent than in 5e (outside AL) or the classic game. RAW was hammered out on-line and a lot of stock put in it. 'Core only,' WotC only, and E6 were popular variations.

I'm not at all sure the on-line community is representative. "What we own" was probably a reasonably popular variation as well, which might have been defacto "Core only", but could have been endless variety depending on what books and third party books the DM had purchased (for better or worse).

But as I was trying to explain, rules variation is far from what determines the game that is being played at the table.

But, JMHX, when I walked into a classic game, the first thing I'd ask is what variants the DM was using, and if he said 'none,' I wouldn't believe him. ;)

And well you shouldn't, because even if they thought they weren't, they probably were. To a certain extent that applies of 3e as well, though I agree the rules were a lot clearer in the 3e era.

I don't expect everyone had exactly that experience, but 5e is intentionally calling back the feel of the classic game in emphasizing DM Empowerment, including freedom of the DM to mod the rules as much or little as he likes.

LOL. I have a 596 page 3e house rules document that I consider woefully incomplete. I don't think DM empowerment or permission to mod the rules is ever anything I worry about.
 

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