D&D 5E What is/should be the Ranger's "thing"?

Diamondeye

First Post
???

Have you ever looked at the 1st edition ranger? Favoured Enemy and Tracking were the basis behind the Ranger. +1 to damage "per level of ranger" was huge and the defining feature of the class no matter what you say.

This is why I said "aside from 1E" it was not a defining feature. Yes, I've lookd at 1E. Have you ever even looked at a concept called "reading comprehension"?

In the case of 1E, yes, the "favored enemy" was a big character feature, but the Ranger's character features overall made no sense in relation to each other. After that, they bore more relevance to each other, but favored enemy degraded in importance.

Don't ask if someone has ever even read an edition. If you have to ask that, the answer is almost always "yes". In 1E it was defining, after that it was not. In a large part, that's because it was a bad major feature. 2E was made for a reason, and many classes got major revisions for that reason - they were poorly designed.

Look no further than the 1E bard if you don't believe it. The 1E bard is an absolute mess; if someone were to argue for bard revisions the last argument they would ever make is "but the 1E bard was like that!" Something being a certain way in 1E is not a reason it should be so.
 
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steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
They are related and made sense because they were all traits that could be explained/attached to the Aragorn character. So, saying repeatedly they were all unattached doesn't make it so. They were related, just not in a way, apparently, you were able to recognize/draw the parallels.

As for my use of it being "explicit", it has been told many times how someone from EGG's original gaming group basically said "I want to play someone like Aragorn" and the resulting creation was the ranger class. So, even though the PHB didn't say it, yes, the ranger was explicitly modeled after the character of Aragorn...taken and attempted to put into the D&D terms of the day/time.

I will grant you trying to take characters from non-D&D sources and put them into D&D game mechanics/terms is often a fool's errand (or results in utterly awful and/or broken creations).
 
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Diamondeye

First Post
They are related and made sense because they were all traits that could be explained/attached to the Aragorn character. So, saying repeatedly they were all unattached doesn't make it so. They were related, just not in a way, apparently, you were able to recognize/draw the parallels.

I already addressed this. Aragorn is a literary character; his creation is unrelated to D&D. Simply being characteristics that Aragorn has doesn't logically relate them to one another and especially doesn't do so in the context of D&D. Pointing out that this character ties them together is simply pedantry; technically he ties them all together in the abstract but Aragorn has nothing to do with D&D and that isn't a relevant commonality for purposes of designing a D&D class. "Looks like X fantasy character" is not the desired endstate for the Ranger or any other class. There's many fantasy rangers and the ranger class ideally should be able to approximate most of them.

As for my use of it being "explicit", it has been told many times how someone from EGG's original gaming group basically said "I want to play someone like Aragorn" and the resulting creation was the ranger class. So, even though the PHB didn't say it, yes, the ranger was explicitly modeled after the character of Aragorn...taken and attempted to put into the D&D terms of the day/time.

It was not explicit at the time 1E was played - it was not mentioned in the PHB, and at the time that 2E succeeded it the internet as a common public facility was still several years off. Most players would have been unaware of that.

More importantly, who cares? Why do we care about a few people in EGG's original group? Why should emulating some guy that played with Gygax be a design goal?

I will grant you trying to take characters from non-D&D sources and put them into D&D game mechanics/terms is often a fool's errand (or results in utterly awful and/or broken creations).

And that is why we should not use attempts to make a class to emulate a particular non-D&D fantasy character. It was done in 1E when it really should not have been done once the game went from "something some guys in Wisconsin play together" to "something we are publishing and selling nationwide."
 
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epithet

Explorer
...
More importantly, who cares? Why do we care about a few people in EGG's original group? Why should emulating some guy that played with Gygax be a design goal?
...

No one is suggesting that as a design goal. It is, however, very relevant to the discussion in this thread, for the simple reason that the original defining characteristic of the Ranger class was "to be like Aragorn." That was what motivated the creation of the AD&D Ranger. Now, you might correctly say that the class did not entirely succeed in that effort. You might also correctly point out that the Ranger needs a more compelling raison d'être than that in this modern edition of the game.

The fact that the Ranger had its beginning as "a character kind of like Aragorn" is part of the reason we're now discussing the need to take the class back to the drawing board.
 

fuindordm

Adventurer
I admit I never really understood the desire for a spell-less Ranger so maybe the people who want one can set me straight.

At the risk of derailing the thread into something other than literary deconstruction...

Personally, I prefer D&D when the majority of PCs are not spellcasters. I prefer fantasy in general when magic and the use thereof are rare events in the character's lives. I have no problem with a party containing a cleric and a wizard, but when every player has spells then the implied setting is one of magic as technology, not magic as mystery.

I was esctatic when 4E delivered a new archetype for a mundane martial character: the warlord (yes, I know it wasn't the first attempt along those lines but I think it was the first one that worked well). It expanded the range for the first time in quite a while. I can dream of a D&D where at least half the core classes are mostly mundane: barbarian, fighter, knight, monk, ranger, rogue, warlord...

I also realize that it's never been the case that most classes, or even half the classes couldn't use spells. But I can dream... and I grew up with the AD&D ranger where spells were NOT part of the class until high level, and the spells they finally learned were so weak compared to those used by the ranger's companions that they really felt like "just another trick I picked up" and not a defining feature of the class. So to me the ranger has always felt like it should be a mundane scout/hunter archetype.

But the core of the reason, to answer your question, is that when magic is rarer among PCs, then magic is a more powerful force in the story of the campaign.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
Like I said, the fluff is what tells us what Gygax was actually thinking about when he wrote the class. All the mechanics are ostensibly in service of the fluff.

There are two things wrong with this assumption. First, we can really only assume that the fluff is the way it is because EGG wanted the fluff to be that way. If he had wanted the mechanics to adhere more closely to the fluff, we can only assume he would have so emended them. It is incorrect to assume authorial intent for the Ranger's design can be gleaned from that one sentence. Second, EGG didn't write the 1E Ranger. You might say he converted or adapted it. If you compare it to Joe Fischer's Ranger in The Strategic Review, #2 it is, mechanically speaking, nearly identical. The fluff text, however, is not present in Fischer's article, by which it is made obvious that the mechanics of the class were designed first, and that Gygax added the fluff as an afterthought.

But as far as discovering the theme of the 1E ranger as Gygax wrote it, I have a hard time believing you honestly don't see how druid spells show a connection to an outdoorsman theme.

I see the connection. My point was that having access to spells of any sort isn't the same as being skilled in woodcraft as a mundane woodsman is. I do recognize, however, that EGG's changing of the Ranger's cleric spells to druid spells and the addition of the flavor text mentioned above seem to be of a piece. My opinion is that Gygax made these changes to distinguish the 1E Ranger from the SR Ranger, possibly for IP reasons. He went even further in this direction with the requirement in UA that the Ranger start with the bow as one of its weapon proficiencies. His intention seems to have been to overlay the woodsman theme onto Fischer's template. Nevertheless, it is worth noting that in UA, while bringing the Ranger into further accord with the theme, Gygax also enlarged the giant class to include every humanoid that had been added to the game since the PH had come out.

...and I'm pretty sure you're just arguing for the sake of argument here, considering the above.

But my position isn't that the Ranger shouldn't have abilities that overlap with those of other classes. My position is that the Ranger should also have something cool it can do that other classes don't.

As the ranger is written in 5E, this is not true when the characters are in the ranger's favored terrain. The ranger effectively has expertise, so he equals the rogue in raw skill bonus, and he also gets some added functionality from the Natural Explorer ability (most usefully, in my experience, being able to track while still remaining on lookout). The fighter, of course, doesn't get expertise and doesn't even come close.

Yes, but as you say this is all situationally dependent on being in the favored terrain. The Rogue's expertise has no such limitations. Outside of its favored terrain how is the Ranger's proficiency in Survival any better than the Fighter's?

And we are discussing rewriting the ranger, so augmenting the class abilities here is very much on the table. Just spitballing here, but a good start would be letting a ranger "acclimatize" to treat wherever he is as a favored terrain after an appropriate period. Or just making the abilities "always on".

My preference would be that favored terrain remain special for individual Rangers. Having the benefits be always on would seem to dilute the flavor of one particular choice or another.

And surely it's possible to write more impressive abilities that directly or indirectly key off of Survival, the way a rogue has Sneak Attack keying off of Stealth/Deception. I've made this point before, but: nobody is complaining that you can build a rogue just by giving a fighter Stealth and the criminal background.

Right, and I think you're on to something here. Maybe a bonus to surprise creatures that you've successfully tracked?

This is... I'm trying not to call you names, but this is just a really, really arrogant statement. Please give it another read and try to understand how it sounds to others. "Do things my way, and if you don't like it, it's on you to figure out how to deal with it."

My point was that I don't see FE as being nearly as problematic as you seem to. The way I described FE up-thread is in line with my own aesthetic preferences, and I don't expect everyone else to rationalize their Ranger's FE the same way I do. My comments were intended to be along the lines of, "Flavor to suit your own preferences," as I see that many are quite comfortable re-fluffing their characters in one way or another.

Again: rogues and sneakiness. Opening up the skill system to other classes hasn't damaged the rogue's identity. Heck, even as early as 2E other classes could hide in shadows and move silently, so the rogue's "thing" has ostensibly been co-opted far longer than the ranger's.

Not if you recognize, as I'm sure you did above, that the Rogue's "thing" is Sneak Attack. I agree that the Ranger should have something like that.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
At the risk of derailing the thread into something other than literary deconstruction...

Personally, I prefer D&D when the majority of PCs are not spellcasters. I prefer fantasy in general when magic and the use thereof are rare events in the character's lives. I have no problem with a party containing a cleric and a wizard, but when every player has spells then the implied setting is one of magic as technology, not magic as mystery.

I was esctatic when 4E delivered a new archetype for a mundane martial character: the warlord (yes, I know it wasn't the first attempt along those lines but I think it was the first one that worked well). It expanded the range for the first time in quite a while. I can dream of a D&D where at least half the core classes are mostly mundane: barbarian, fighter, knight, monk, ranger, rogue, warlord...

I also realize that it's never been the case that most classes, or even half the classes couldn't use spells. But I can dream... and I grew up with the AD&D ranger where spells were NOT part of the class until high level, and the spells they finally learned were so weak compared to those used by the ranger's companions that they really felt like "just another trick I picked up" and not a defining feature of the class. So to me the ranger has always felt like it should be a mundane scout/hunter archetype.

But the core of the reason, to answer your question, is that when magic is rarer among PCs, then magic is a more powerful force in the story of the campaign.

Essentially it's magic.

In 1e, 2e, and 4e, magic was hard and rae and monsters were just beatsticks. It was hard to get specific non-attack spells. In 1e and 2e, monsters were just sacks of HP and many times those sacks were small. In 4e, the sacks were big but the weapons were made of nerf when the target doesn't grant CA. Rangers didn't need magic. You just made a roll to track, follow the tracks, and then hit the monster 3 times.

In 3e and now 5e.... woah boy. 3e was unrestricted magic and magical and rule breaking monsters. Wizards could easily fill their spellbooks with whatever they want. And most threats were up to the gills in spells or magic items. It was magic, use wands/scrolls, or likely be redundant. 5e toned this down by pulling magic out the skill check and damage game somewhat. However magic is crazy. The monster or thief teleported, flew, or casted pass without trace on themselves. Again.

The Aragorn-infused, magial Ranger accidentally matched how the game works with all its powerful and available magic. EGG fell onto the right model by dumb luck. Taking Aragorn and turning his heritage, feats, and nature skills into spells was accidental genius in hindsight.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
This is why I said "aside from 1E" it was not a defining feature. Yes, I've lookd at 1E.
In the case of 1E, yes, the "favored enemy" was a big character feature, but the Ranger's character features overall made no sense in relation to each other. After that, they bore more relevance to each other, but favored enemy degraded in importance.
In 1e, the default 'Giant class' bonus was vs actual giants, the DM could optionally expand it. If he didn't, and you were playing through anything other than the 'Against the Giants' series of modules, chances were that feature was not at all defining.

The Ranger's tracking features was a lot more unique and defining.

After 1e, it varied. Favored Enemy was a central feature of the 3.x ranger, arguably /among/ it's defining features (along with animal companion and the twf/archery choice). Skills were not /that/ defining, since the player could distribute ranks as he liked. In 4e, there was no favored enemy, the Ranger chose an individual enemy to focus on in each encounter.

If you want to identify a feature or feature of the ranger that was there in all editions, Favored Enemy isn't it.

Aragorn has nothing to do with D&D and that isn't a relevant commonality for purposes of designing a D&D class. "Looks like X fantasy character" is not the desired endstate for the Ranger or any other class.

It was not explicit at the time 1E was played - it was not mentioned in the PHB, and at the time that 2E succeeded it the internet as a common public facility was still several years off. Most players would have been unaware of that.
We weren't all living in caves before the internet. It was extremely common knowledge among D&Ders that D&D borrowed heavily from Tolkien - to the extent that the Tolkien estate sued TSR. The Aragorn-Ranger connection was painfully obvious.


Personally, I prefer D&D when the majority of PCs are not spellcasters.
That is the more common case in genre, for instance, yes.

I was esctatic when 4E delivered a new archetype for a mundane martial character: the warlord. It expanded the range for the first time in quite a while. I can dream of a D&D where at least half the core classes are mostly mundane: barbarian, fighter, knight, monk, ranger, rogue, warlord... I also realize that it's never been the case that most classes, or even half the classes couldn't use spells.
On release, the 4e PH1 presented 8 classes. Only two of them (Wizard & Warlock) technically cast spells (Paladins & Clerics using "Prayers" that included weapon attacks as well as implement powers that more closely resembled spells). So you had, for a little while, a D&D where half the classes were martial and didn't have magic as a class feature, at all. There were also 18 'builds' - the Warlock and Wizard had 3 each, for Six explicitly-spell-casting builds; the Cleric & Paladin each had a STR build that used weapon powers and an implement build that was more like caster, while the 4 martial classes each had two builds - so, depending on how you sliced it, there were as few as 6 spell-casting builds, or as many as 10 non-martial builds. But, 10 weapon builds and 8 implement builds would have been just as fair, and put the former in the majority.

Obviously, that state of affairs didn't last long.

But the core of the reason, to answer your question, is that when magic is rarer among PCs, then magic is a more powerful force in the story of the campaign.
Very true. The more ubiquitous magic is - the more it's available as a cheap commodity (like 3.x potions & wands), or as a renewable PC resource (like daily Vancian spells) - the less-wondrous/more-mundane it feels. In 5e, rest-recharge spell resources are so common (~30 of 38 builds), that a martial resource like the Battlemaster's maneuvers could almost be less mundane than spells (if maneuvers weren't so lackluster, that is).
 

Staffan

Legend
In 1e, the default 'Giant class' bonus was vs actual giants, the DM could optionally expand it. If he didn't, and you were playing through anything other than the 'Against the Giants' series of modules, chances were that feature was not at all defining.

Here's what the 1e PHB had to say about it:
"When fighting humanoid-type creatures of the 'giant class', listed hereafter, rangers add 1 hit point for each level of experience they have attained to the damage scored when they hit in melee combat. Giant class creatures are: bugbears, ettins, giants, gnolls, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, ogres, ogre magi, orcs, and trolls."

That doesn't cover every "monster humanoid" (e.g. not lizard men, kuo-toa, troglodytes, etc.), but a rather significant chunk of them. DM benevolence mainly comes into play when dealing with added monsters that are variants on the above list - e.g. orogs, norkers, and so on.
 


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