Unsatisfied with the D&D 5e skill system

Sure, but it almost seems like it'd have to be all or nothing. I feel like the current skill set is purposefully broad. If you start making more specific proficiencies, it seems like you'd have to flesh a lot of them out and change how many characters get, etc.

I mean, it's totally doable and something I might try when I get more time, but as of now I don't think it really exists.

Saelorn said:

Yes, but there are also games where that is the legitimate and expected course of play, because the game is concerned more with creating an interesting narrative than in modeling causal processes. Those GMs aren't (necessarily) being jerks, when they play those games and make such rulings.

My comment was just that D&D, specifically, is not one of those games.

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I guess I disagree quite a bit with that conclusion. D&D 5e strikes a really good balance between creating an interesting narrative and modeling causal processes. The two are certainly not mutually exclusive. Also, an interesting narrative need not entail the DM forcing their will upon the players, if that's what you are implying. That is the most uninteresting narrative, IMO.

DM Dave1 said:

Yeah, Jerk DMs will be jerk DMs no matter what the playstyle. They're playing to win, not to provide interesting challenges for the players and to help create a fun time for all. Those types eventually get weeded out when the players call them out on their consistently bogus rulings.

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I don't think Saelorn's talking about jerk DMs.

Earlier, you gave an example of play that I'd call a positive example of the style y'all are discussing:

PCs had just cleared out the basement lair of some nasty monsters. They were intent on finding some treasure in the crumbled remains of the base of an old tower that was in the basement. They worked together to succeed on some INT (Investigation) and STR (Athletics) checks to enter the tower without collapsing it further. They found the dusty skeletal remains of a long-dead humanoid with a note. The Storm Sorcerer was convinced this could not be everything and so said he was searching the floor for any cracks. After indicating "you bet", he then said he would cast create water to see if it drained through the cracks and then listen to what he heard. Now I did not have anything planned here, but after that creative approach and goal, I just improvised and said it sounded like the water was falling and splashing onto the floor of a hidden chamber below. Some more good roleplaying and successful rolls to not cave in the floor resulted in them finding a chest which I had not even planned. Good fun for all which would have been lost had the player simply said "I roll perception" or some other such short-hand that did not involve our approach and goal style

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There's nothing of the jerk DM in that at all. You're being a nice, good DM. But inventing a treasure cache because you liked the player's action is very much like inventing guards because a check failed.

I've been avoiding doing that sort of thing in my current megadungeon campaign.

If I had previously placed the treasure cache, but had never conceived that it could be found by flooding the room, that'd be cool. If the guards were already established (even if only in my notes) and the attempt to open the door drew those guards, that'd be cool.

Satyrn said:

I don't think Saelorn's talking about jerk DMs.

Earlier, you gave an example of play that I'd call a positive example of the style y'all are discussing:
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There's nothing of the jerk DM in that at all. You're being a nice, good DM. But inventing a treasure cache because you liked the player's action is very much like inventing guards because a check failed.

I've been avoiding doing that sort of thing in my current megadungeon campaign.

If I had previously placed the treasure cache, but had never conceived that it could be found by flooding the room, that'd be cool. If the guards were already established (even if only in my notes) and the attempt to open the door drew those guards, that'd be cool.

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That makes complete sense. In my "defense", the treasure wasn't fully invented. There was another chest elsewhere (DMs Guild adventure) that simply was not going to be found in the time that we had left so I played the "quantum treasure" card. And now to incriminate myself, it was not at all the same chest as in the published adventure so I guess in the end, yep, guilty as charged. Not sure if that kind of improv is inherently bad - I mean sometimes (lots of times?) players go off the figurative or literal path and the DM doesn't want to just say "nuthin' happens" every time. Maybe the good middle ground is to have a really random table at the ready so it's not seen as pure DM whim (although the players in my game still don't know what I did). On the other hand, I can see how it could be abused both by a DM and by players who know that is the DM's schtick. Anyway, thanks for getting me to cogitate on that one! Always more to learn about the craft...

DM Dave1 said:

That makes complete sense. In my "defense", the treasure wasn't fully invented. There was another chest elsewhere (DMs Guild adventure) that simply was not going to be found in the time that we had left so I played the "quantum treasure" card. And now to incriminate myself, it was not at all the same chest as in the published adventure so I guess in the end, yep, guilty as charged. Not sure if that kind of improv is inherently bad - I mean sometimes (lots of times?) players go off the figurative or literal path and the DM doesn't want to just say "nuthin' happens" every time. Maybe the good middle ground is to have a really random table at the ready so it's not seen as pure DM whim (although the players in my game still don't know what I did). On the other hand, I can see how it could be abused both by a DM and by players who know that is the DM's schtick. Anyway, thanks for getting me to cogitate on that one! Always more to learn about the craft...

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Of course it isn't inherently bad. Nothing that enhances the game is bad (unless it is, and when it is you know it). Rolling with the game is the mutual creation of the story that is the whole reason the game comes alive and turns into a dynamic experience. Anyone can read a script, and I think we can all agree that those DM's who do that are typically not much fun to play under. Some of the greatest game ideas I've ever had as a storyteller have actually come from the mouths of players who had no idea that I just rewrote my entire plotline because brilliance poured out of their throats and they didn't even realize it. And when they figure the plot out, and think that they came to the right conclusions because I as a DM must have masterfully laid things out for them to understand, do I tell them that they came up with the ideas themselves that I just ran with? Hell no! My players have a blast, I have a blast, and the creative ball rolls back and forth between us, even if they don't realize it. That is called good DMing.

What I wrote about earlier wasn't an objection to making changes on the fly, it was an objection to letting the players know that you are ad hoc in your changes, or that you are allowing the dice to decide important aspects of the game. Its not a crime to do these things, but it sure damages the suspension of disbelief and thus the game if you advertise the fact. Leave the mystery in the game, don't advertise your system at the expense of your story.

twofalls said:

Are you saying that your players know that treasure found is generated by their search tests, that it exists or doesn't exist based on what they roll? Is this really how you play? It's one thing for this to be a true yet hidden aspect of the game, but another thing to be an open fact. I want to think I'm misunderstanding you because if this is how you run these things, then why do your players bother coming to game? If adventure treasures are simply generated by their own dice rolls, then were is the sense of a real world existing behind their adventuring? It would be like playing games of Bethesda's Daggerfalls where all dungeons and awards are randomly generated. I must be misunderstanding you.

Edit: Unless, perhaps, these little rewards are so ancillary and unimportant to your players that it's just not that big a deal. That would be an unusual circumstance, but within the realm of possibility I suppose.

2nd edit: I actually found the liquid on the floor idea to be very creative, and I also would have rewarded it. Just because something has been thought of before, doesn't mean that everyone has been informed of that thought. There is nothing new under the sun, as King Solomon writes in Ecclesiastes. It doesn't follow then, that there is no creativity under the sun.

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Yes, my players know my rules. I dont tend to hide house tules from them.

As for your seeming disbelief, are you aware that what I described is how Foraging checks in 5e are handled? Gm assigns a DC based on the situation and terrain and a successful check finds useful/valuable stuff and failures can get really interesting. The GM did not need to pre-game "place" flora, fauna and water for the players to find. The results of checks determine it. Iirc its DMG under wilderness stuff but mentioned in the DMG.

Also, perhaps you have heard of Random encounters where other rolls adjusted by situation, actions, choices etc can lead to various events that the characters may encounter. Agsin, not needed for the GM to pre-set these to specific spots.

There are also AP where it defines miscellaneous "stuff of value kinds of things that are scavengable etc - determined randomly, not by pre-set location and amounts.

The perhaps significant difference between my point about it and the poster I responded to was his was given automatically as a reward for creativity. It did not "exist" was not true for him either until X happened. The difference was in theirs X was "gm liked what the player said" and for me it was "a success at a task by the character" if you will.

As for why my players bother coming to game, if I go by what they have told me, it's because they love my games. I don't think this house rule had any real impact on that, negatively at least. For the guys with exceptional search skills (and less often others) it does often lead yo very meaningful scenes and follow-ups, so I can say it added to their enjoyment in a few cases just off my head.

Are these finds unimportant to the characters, not hardly. To the players, nope. Heck, some of them have been more important to them than the "placed" treasures were.

As for your take on creativity, that's great. I am all happy for you 9n that regard. But, curious if you would call it "creative" the next three times, the next ten. If not, if that water trick stops generating treasure cuz it's now labelled "routine" , seems like it will stop getting used.

In my game, once it's used, once its seen as "effective" it will keep its benefit long term. That way we can maintain a very consistent world. If something stops being effective, they look for "why" and z better "why" than "it's not creative snymore."

But that's us.

Not necessarily for everyone.


Oh, edit to add

At the start of each session, my players deal me cards face down
I take them and use them to add to the evdning's play.

Hearts equals chance to help someone with aid or get aid yourself.
Diamonds means opportunity fore more loot.
Spades equals challenge OS an environmental or passive passive nature - floods, bad weather, blighted area.
Clubs represents additional combat threats.

Sometimes, these radically change the defining in unpredicted ways.

So there is another case where we get results from more than just GM predos.

That has been loads of fun, according to them.

5ekyu said:

As for why my players bother coming to game, if I go by what they have told me, it's because they love my games. I don't think this house rule had any real impact on that, negatively at least. For the guys with exceptional search skills (and less often others) it does often lead yo very meaningful scenes and follow-ups, so I can say it added to their enjoyment in a few cases just off my head.

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I wasn't pretending to not understand, I really don't get it. However you cannot argue with success, and if your players love your games then you are to be congratulated (really, seriously congratulated, being a good DM isn't easy). How you describe it and I understand it wouldn't ever work for me, but then I'm only hearing you describe it, and that isn't the same thing as experiencing your running it. Much is lost in that transition.

5ekyu said:

Oh, edit to add

At the start of each session, my players deal me cards face down
I take them and use them to add to the evdning's play.

Hearts equals chance to help someone with aid or get aid yourself.
Diamonds means opportunity fore more loot.
Spades equals challenge OS an environmental or passive passive nature - floods, bad weather, blighted area.
Clubs represents additional combat threats.

Sometimes, these radically change the defining in unpredicted ways.

So there is another case where we get results from more than just GM predos.

That has been loads of fun, according to them.

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That's creative, I've heard of systems that do similar things, typically with fate pointconcepts were the players get to influence the world during the game.

twofalls said:

I wasn't pretending to not understand, I really don't get it. However you cannot argue with success, and if your players love your games then you are to be congratulated (really, seriously congratulated, being a good DM isn't easy). How you describe it and I understand it wouldn't ever work for me, but then I'm only hearing you describe it, and that isn't the same thing as experiencing your running it. Much is lost in that transition.

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Perhaps. Folks have different preferences and for some a gm changing anything is like some form of din because for thrir gameplay a gm is supposed to be a referee of sorts.

Me, nah, not my style.

For the players I tend to attract and who stay, the idea that things are more driven by them, their characters and their choices, actions, aptitudes than my pre-set, pre-fab, pre-run plan and numbered map spots seems to make them happy.

Go figure.

But again, I find that works best when it's not hidden. I tell them straight up about my dirty dozen- list of stuff to personalize and add-on for each character (race, class, background x 4 characters = dozen.) Those getting added in and seeded in as the consequences of successes (usually exceptional ones) keeps that sense of "what I do matters" reinforced.

But again, not for dveryone.

twofalls said:

I wasn't pretending to not understand, I really don't get it. However you cannot argue with success, and if your players love your games then you are to be congratulated (really, seriously congratulated, being a good DM isn't easy). How you describe it and I understand it wouldn't ever work for me, but then I'm only hearing you describe it, and that isn't the same thing as experiencing your running it. Much is lost in that transition.

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Let me ask you to perhaps indulge me with a follow-up question.

If the results from the character deciding to search a room led to a wandering monster encounter and on that monster they found treasure, would that also be something you dont understand? That's an unplanned monster and treasure find.

If not, if that's ok and hey how things are done sometimes (like since earliest dnd) why then is the result being unplanned treasure find without the monster so beyond understanding?