D&D General AD&D 3E To AD&D 5E Hypothetical Incremental Edition

[Zardnaar]

How do you figure? Not necessarily disagreeing, but those old tables were a bit goofy IMO, so curious to hear the rationale. Trying to square peg/round hole in game events into this table... oy. The blacksmith just emptied a bucket of hot coals towards me. He did look like he put his back into it and fired it super hard, so maybe it's a ray? They look pretty fiery... dragon breath? Maybe that mini-game is part of the appeal?

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Basically at higher levels we went from making saves 75-95% of the time to failing saves a similar amount.

High level fighters in 2E were still very viable and useful to have around.

5E isn't as bad as 3.5 and espically 3.0 but a T Rex for example fails a vad save around 75% of tge time while an AD&D one makes its save around 75% of the time.

In 5E this also means if you dont know what spells to use pick ones targeting intelligence or charisma. Avoid ones targeting constitution espicially if it's also poison damage.

Intelligence saves spells were rare until Xanathars/Tashas.

 

[Voadam]

How do you figure? Not necessarily disagreeing, but those old tables were a bit goofy IMO, so curious to hear the rationale. Trying to square peg/round hole in game events into this table... oy. The blacksmith just emptied a bucket of hot coals towards me. He did look like he put his back into it and fired it super hard, so maybe it's a ray? They look pretty fiery... dragon breath? Maybe that mini-game is part of the appeal?

View attachment 341118

Some rationales for the categories are:

Death and poison = straight favor of the gods and luck type stuff either you are scratched and die or you are not and fine.

Wands = rays that can miss or be dodged.

Stone = magical transformation type stuff.

Dragon Breath = area of effect stuff.

Staves or spells = catch all other magic for everything not covered such as mind control.

Throwing other stuff into the categories is judgment calls on best fit for broad categories. Bucket of coals instead of flinging one could be area and go with dragon breath.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

3e, 5e, PF1, and Pf2 add ability mods to saving throws and had Good/Bad saves.

The problem.

DCs always add the full Xer's user's primary score modifier with their Good progression. The target didnot have that luxury. It could be the secondary or tertiary score. It could be their bad save.

FIREBALL vs Level 6s with 18 primary score, 14 secondaries, and 12 tertiary scores.

3e
DC: 17 (10 + spell level of 3 + caster modifier or 4)

Fighter Reflex: +4 or +6
Cleric Reflex: +3
Rogue Reflex: +9
Wizard Reflex: +4
Only the Rogue has more than 50% chance to save.
Only the Rogue gets much better

5e
DC: 17 (10 + prof of 3 + caster modifier or 4)

Fighter Reflex: +2 or +4
Cleric Reflex: +1
Rogue Reflex: +7
Wizard Reflex: +2
Only the Rogue has more than 50% chance to save.
Only the Rogue gets much better

Your chart
Fighter vs Spells: +6
Cleric vs Spells: +8
Wizard vs Spells: +8

So that covers the numbers aspect. Cool. Does not cover the concern I expressed though: it's colourful, great, but crazily arbitrary.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Some rationales for the categories are:

Death and poison = straight favor of the gods and luck type stuff either you are scratched and die or you are not and fine.

Wands = rays that can miss or be dodged.

Stone = magical transformation type stuff.

Dragon Breath = area of effect stuff.

Staves or spells = catch all other magic for everything not covered such as mind control.

Throwing other stuff into the categories is judgment calls on best fit for broad categories. Bucket of coals instead of flinging one could be area and go with dragon breath.

Good tips for using that table! I was actually wanting some justification for using the table in the first place though...

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Basically at higher levels we went from making saves 75-95% of the time to failing saves a similar amount.

High level fighters in 2E were still very viable and useful to have around.

5E isn't as bad as 3.5 and espically 3.0 but a T Rex for example fails a vad save around 75% of tge time while an AD&D one makes its save around 75% of the time.

In 5E this also means if you dont know what spells to use pick ones targeting intelligence or charisma. Avoid ones targeting constitution espicially if it's also poison damage.

Intelligence saves spells were rare until Xanathars/Tashas.

This is super hard to parse. The gist I'm getting from this is that you are making the same point as @Minigiant ... you're pointing out that the old school saves gave 'better numbers' across the levels. I'm actually asking about the appeal of these seemingly nonsensical categories.

 

[Minigiant]

So that covers the numbers aspect. Cool. Does not cover the concern I expressed though: it's colourful, great, but crazily arbitrary.

IT wasn't arbitrary, just poorly worded.

As @Voadam stated

Poison&Death is basically Fortitude
Wands is Touch AC
Paraysi/Petrification is save vs Transformation
Dragon's Breath is Reflex
Spells is Everything else.


The should and would have been renamed

Fortitude
Dodge
Polymorph
Reflex
Magic

And be based on class and level with no other modifiers except magic items.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

IT wasn't arbitrary, just poorly worded.

As @Voadam stated

Poison&Death is basically Fortitude
Wands is Touch AC
Paraysi/Petrification is save vs Transformation
Dragon's Breath is Reflex
Spells is Everything else.


The should and would have been renamed

Fortitude
Dodge
Polymorph
Reflex
Magic

And be based on class and level with no other modifiers except magic items.

Much better names! What's the difference between Dodge and Reflex though? And why have a special category specifically for Polymorph? And what's the point of the Magic category? Will saves? Sort of seems like just Fortitude/Reflex/Will, but without the ability score bonuses attached to them (with class-based numbers instead).

 

[Minigiant]

Much better names! What's the difference between Dodge and Reflex though? And why have a special category specifically for Polymorph? And what's the point of the Magic category? Will saves? Sort of seems like just Fortitude/Reflex/Will, but without the ability score bonuses attached to them (with class-based numbers instead).

Dodge is more spell attack. Like Chromatic Orb.
Reflex is Dex save. Like Burning hand.

Polymorph is Tradition.It would be in AD&D 3e and cut in AD&D 4e.

AD&D 3e
Fortitude
Dodge
Polymorph
Reflex
Spell
(Psionics)

AD&D 4e
Fortitude
Dodge
Will
Reflex
Magic
(Psionics)

AD&D 5e
Fortitude
Dodge
Will
Reflex
Curses (Curses, some Warlocks and Cleric spells)
Stability (Knockdowns, Shoves, Pulls, Disarms, Teleports)
(Psionics)

 

[Zardnaar]

This is super hard to parse. The gist I'm getting from this is that you are making the same point as @Minigiant ... you're pointing out that the old school saves gave 'better numbers' across the levels. I'm actually asking about the appeal of these seemingly nonsensical categories.

I don't really care what they call them more the mechanical effects.

On psoer every fighter has looked better than a 2E one. In practice not so much due to the other mechanical effects.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Dodge is more spell attack. Like Chromatic Orb.
Reflex is Dex save. Like Burning hand.

Don't you mean:

Reflex is more spell attack. Like Chromatic Orb.
Dodge is Dex save. Like Burning hand.