D&D General AD&D 3E To AD&D 5E Hypothetical Incremental Edition

[The Soloist]

I still think that the old saving throw tables were better.

Yes. In 1980, when we first read the list of saving throws on the character sheet, we immediately knew how dangerous the D&D world would be. Paralysis, petrification, poison, death, dragon breath, wands. They explained the game experience in a nutshell. Modern saves based on attributes do not tell that story. They are bland.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Yes. In 1980, when we first read the list of saving throws on the character sheet, we immediately knew how dangerous the D&D world would be. Paralysis, petrification, poison, death, dragon breath, wands. They explained the game experience in a nutshell. Modern saves based on attributes do not tell that story. They are bland.

That's it in a nutshell. The old saves were dripping with storylines, allegory, and other cool stuff that kept nerdy 12 year olds interested in this game. Utterly fascinating, respected game balance somehow, but super arbitrary and nonsensical. Same sense of simultaneous wonder/wtf brought on by Gygaxian purple prose.

The new saves respect logic (I'm partial to the 4E version), but completely fail to capture the imagination. Is there a happy medium?

 

[soviet]

That's it in a nutshell. The old saves were dripping with storylines, allegory, and other cool stuff that kept nerdy 12 year olds interested in this game. Utterly fascinating, respected game balance somehow, but super arbitrary and nonsensical. Same sense of simultaneous wonder/wtf brought on by Gygaxian purple prose.

The new saves respect logic (I'm partial to the 4E version), but completely fail to capture the imagination. Is there a happy medium?

This is a good reason for preserving AD&D (either edition) as was: the evocation of magic and nostalgia. I think this supercedes 'design elegance and modern sensibilities' in almost every case.

 

[mamba]

This is a good reason for preserving AD&D (either edition) as was: the evocation of magic and nostalgia. I think this supercedes 'design elegance and modern sensibilities' in almost every case.

the editions are not going away, you can find pretty much anything from earlier editions on DMsG, they just are no longer in print.

Personally I prefer 5e over them, but then I felt they were a bit clunky and the saves made no sense to me even back then. I definitely think TTRPG design has improved.

 

[Minigiant]

This is a good reason for preserving AD&D (either edition) as was: the evocation of magic and nostalgia. I think this supercedes 'design elegance and modern sensibilities' in almost every case.

You can have design elagance, modern sensibilities, evocative language,and nostalgic names.

AD&D's saves were better than 3e, 4e, and 5e's.But none of the were great because they all leaned too heavy on a side flavor vs ease graphs.

AD&D 5e would still struggle to make a save system that is evocative that one can calculate in their head the same as D&D 5e.

Best I got is (Score + Class bonus - 10) with the renamed saves.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Basically at higher levels we went from making saves 75-95% of the time to failing saves a similar amount.

3e definitely made a weakness a weakness. Except for the way DR was given out like candy. And then you get the "weapons caddy" to hand out monster-specific gear.

Mechanics drive player behavior.

In 1e spells started out weak then got much more powerful at increasing levels. I.e. a MU-5 does about 50% of a troll's hp of they fail the save against a 3rd level fireball. A MU-10 can outright kill trolls who fail their save against a 3rd level fireball. An MU13 can kill a typical blue dragon (10hd=45hp) with a single fireball if they fail the save.

A 3e Wiz5 does about 25% of a troll's hp of they fail the save against a 3rd level fireball. A wiz10 does 55% vs trolls who fail their save against a 3rd level fireball. The 3e wiz13 fireball(3rd) against an adult blue dragon (21hd=241hp) who didnt save does 15% of its hit points.

A 5E Wiz5 does 33% a trolls hp when they fail the save against the 3rd level fireball. A Wiz10 also does 33% of a trolls hp when they fail the save against a 3rd level fireball, but the save is harder to make. The wiz13 does 12% of the adult blue dragon's 225hp with an unresisted 3rd level fireball.

Essentially, 5e 1st-20th plays like 1e 3rd-13th level.

In 5e they mitigate weak saves by making spells less effective (doubling or tripling hp compared to older editions or giving saves every round), preventing multiple spells with duration via concentration, using concentration interruption to end spells, reducing the number of spell slots available above class level 8 especially for high level (6th-9th) spells, and adding legendary saves.

3e gave everything around double the hp as 1e, lots of DR to bolster saves plus Spell Resistance. Casters could be interrupted, though there was a narrow time window for success.

1e had some flat spell resistance (not as common as 5e legendaries or 3e DR) but mostly used opportunity costs to encourage casters to limit how many spells they cast via time to recover spells. Spell selection was another gating mechanism, and lastly 1e casters spent a lot of effort to avoid losing spells due to easy casting interruption (hiding/taking cover, defensive items & lower level spell slots like blur, mirror image, etc).

So, what were the behaviors? These are all from my experience, YMMV.

1e - MU were prone to "holding action" or throwing darts in common fights that "weren't worth a spell". When possible the would "spin up" before fights, casting buffs, defenses, summons, etc where the duration would get through the fight. The MU basically hid, using magic items (if available) during combat. They would come out to unleash a devastating spell if the danger was high (and they had one prepared). Low level MUs were indistinguishable from thieves, hiding and throwing daggers. Fighters cut through the minor fights and protected the glass cannons so they could get off that dragon-slaying spell.

3e - had plenty of spin up as spells refreshed daily. The offensive blasts were used more often but they were less devastating. Casters still took cover, but that was more hit point management than spell preservation. A caster with the hit points could take the opportunity attacks to move out of combat and then get their spell off. Low level casters were usually crossbow users. Warriors had arrays of DR-defeating weapons (silver shortsword, adamantine axe, cold iron mace, longsword +1...) Warriors got multiple attacks to carve up foes weakened by spells.

5e - casters have reliable cantrips that do warrior-esque damage so they are slinging spells every round. Their damaging spells are impacted but far from devastating. Mostly casters clear out the chaff or would temporarily hinder a BBEG so the warriors could gang up on it. If they have a devastating spell, odds are they can only cast it once a day. "Spinning up" is either potion guzzling or when all the party casters buff one PC (Polymorph:giant ape + enlarge + Armor of Agathys on the warlock was fun) however this means those casters concentrating on spells are hiding.

So...pick your dials to get the play feel you want.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Best I got is (Score + Class bonus - 10) with the renamed saves.

That's a decent idea. At least a starting point, but pretty good on its own.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

This is a good reason for preserving AD&D (either edition) as was: the evocation of magic and nostalgia. I think this supercedes 'design elegance and modern sensibilities' in almost every case.

I think preservation of 'magic and nostalgia' is a worthy goal. Having to drag along AD&D with it? That's an albatross we don't need to carry forward in my opinion. Also, superseding 'design elegance' (not sure what you mean by modern sensibilities) should not be a goal, ever. Make clean rules that don't give you headaches (i.e. design elegance) but preserve nostalgia. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[kigmatzomat]

One addendum to observed player behavior:

The "5 Minute Adventuring day" existed in all editions, however in 1e it was generally not done past 7th-ish level. There was a window where you could recover all your spells, or at least all your good spells, in one night plus a morning of prep. At higher levels the prep time ramped up precipitously so it was more like a "5 minute adventuring week". So casters hoarded spells.

3e made the 5MAD effective at all levels. As casters get more effective at higher levels, it became far more appealing. Giving the Sorcerer back their 2 dozen fireballs was just too useful. Why hoard spells when you get a full tank tomorrow?

5e still has xMAD but tries to turn it into 70MAD, where there's a burst of activity, a short rest to do a partial recharge followed by more adventuring. 5e gives both fewer fireballs and they are less effective, so it reduces the long rest value to the party. "Jeff we're at full hit points and Fireball isn't insta-kill in this edition. Just cast Fog Cloud so their casters can't target us while we whittle down the mooks and use Firebolt."

 

[The Soloist]

One addendum to observed player behavior:

The "5 Minute Adventuring day" existed in all editions, however in 1e it was generally not done past 7th-ish level. There was a window where you could recover all your spells, or at least all your good spells, in one night plus a morning of prep. At higher levels the prep time ramped up precipitously so it was more like a "5 minute adventuring week". So casters hoarded spells.

3e made the 5MAD effective at all levels. As casters get more effective at higher levels, it became far more appealing. Giving the Sorcerer back their 2 dozen fireballs was just too useful. Why hoard spells when you get a full tank tomorrow?

5e still has xMAD but tries to turn it into 70MAD, where there's a burst of activity, a short rest to do a partial recharge followed by more adventuring. 5e gives both fewer fireballs and they are less effective, so it reduces the long rest value to the party. "Jeff we're at full hit points and Fireball isn't insta-kill in this edition. Just cast Fog Cloud so their casters can't target us while we whittle down the mooks and use Firebolt."

In BX and AD&D it took 10 minutes to explore a portion of the dungeon. Movement is per turn not per round. If you follow that pace the 5-minute adventuring day does not exist.

"Exploring the unknown: When exploring unknown areas of a dungeon, characters can move their base movement rate in feet per turn. This (very slow!) rate of movement takes account for the fact that PCs are exploring, watching their footing, mapping, and trying to be quiet and avoid obstacles."