Complete Arcane - Hideous Blow and Aoo

[irdeggman]

I agree that it is a much better invocation. But, we're not using Dragon Magic in our current campaign as freely available material. The material exists, but the powers it contains must be discovered/aquired in game and cannot be chosen by default. So, warlocks do not have free access to Dragon Magic invocations like Eldritch Glaive.

This concept of "discovering" new material always leaves a logic flaw for classes like the warlock or sorcerer where their abilities aren't "learned" but rather a natural part of their being. Warlocks don't have a "research" method of learning things. Sorcerers sort of do, but all it does is allow a method of acquiring spells - they never gain (shy of taking feats) additional spells above the number listed in the table.

If it was my game - I would have the player tell me what he wanted (from other books) and I would either approve it or not on a case basis. For the warlock the abilities gained probably would start to have some sort of physical effect (appearance wise) - especially if they were heritage feat base things.

 

[yellowparis]

Hideous Blow does not provoke AoOs. That's clarified in, I think, the CA errata. Eldritch Glaive is still typically better, but that's more to do with power creep than some particular weakness in Hideous Blow.

-edit-

Nope, not in CA errata, so it's probably not official. I'm pretty sure it's come up, though ... if I find it, I'll post it.

 

[irdeggman]

Hideous Blow does not provoke AoOs. That's clarified in, I think, the CA errata. Eldritch Glaive is still typically better, but that's more to do with power creep than some particular weakness in Hideous Blow.

Nope.

Not in the errata.

In the FAQ

Does a warlock’s hideous blow invocation (CAr, page
134) require one standard action to use the hideous blow
and another round to strike with a melee weapon, or can
the hideous blow and the melee weapon attack be done as a
single standard action?

Making an attack with hideous blow is considered part of
the same standard action as using the hideous blow invocation
(much like the casting of a touch spell allows an attack to be
made as part of the spell’s casting).


Does hideous blow provoke an attack of opportunity?

Yes. As a spell-like ability, using hideous blow provokes
attacks of opportunity just as any other spell-like ability would.
A warlock who relies on this invocation should consider
investing ranks in the Concentration skill so that he can use it
defensively.

Note that the act of using the invocation, not the act of
making the attack, draws the attack of opportunity, since the
warlock delivering hideous blow is considered “armed” (just
like a spellcaster delivering a touch spell).

As pointed out earlier it the act of generating the invocation that generates the AoO not of striking.

 

[Dandu]

Eldritch Glaive is still typically better, but that's more to do with power creep than some particular weakness in Hideous Blow.

Giving the Warlock the same melee damage output as other classes is power creep how?

 

[yellowparis]

Spectacular ... it looks like WotC's board changes ate the relevant bit, but it has been said. Check this thread, though: link.

And search for 'hideous blow'. That thread summarizes what the actual FAQ thread once said. Feel free to go hunting the net for an archive of the original thread, but I don't have the energy.

What FAQ are you looking at?

I find that warlock is, amazingly, not a traditional melee class, so comparing it's damage output to a ranger or somesuch is a little odd. (c: Mind you, I've played a melee warlock, and had great fun doing it (it was a warlock/monk/rogue build aiming at building something that felt like a real kung-fu comic martial artist, rather than the freaky box-of-oddments D&D monk).

But the strength of a warlock (melee or ranged) isn't damage ... it's the endless, no-spell-slot supply of debilitating status effects. When I punched someone with my 'monk', the damage was a nice side effect to the nauseated or whatever. Often, I'd pass on the eldritch blast damage altogether, in favor of touch attack invocations (blindness via bestow curse, say, or stripping off a heavily-buffed enemy's spells).

Warlocks are really nice for that approach ... lots of mobility powers, and lots of standard action, touch-range effects that really screw an enemy. If you want to go for a melee-lock, I suggest focusing on skirmishing tactics: go invisible, move up on an enemy, hit them with a horribly disabling status effect (plus some damage, of course), then let the beat-sticks clean up.

Still, matter of opinion, I suppose. My main issue with eldritch glaive is that it lets you hammer your rider effects home really easily. Every attack you make provokes a save vs. [whatever]. The fighter isn't doing that with his full attacks.

 

[yellowparis]

Actually, I fairly easily found an archive of the FAQ I'm referencing:

Warlock Errata by Rich Baker [Archive] - Page 2 - Wizards Community

Short answer is, I don't know. I didn't write hideous blow (the developers added it after I worked on Complete Arcane) so I'm not sure what their intent was.

As written, the answer sure seems to be yes. But I think the ability makes more sense if it doesn't. I'll ask the developers.

...

I checked with our developers, and we agree: Hideous Blow does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Andy Collins will clarify that in an upcoming Sage Advice.

So, if - at some point - WotC released something confirming that hideous blow provokes AoOs, it seems that that was in direct contradiction to the intentions of the developers. (I did a quick search of Sage Advice, but did not find a relevant entry.)

 

[irdeggman]

What FAQ are you looking at?

Hmmm the "Official" FAQ. And the answeres were also printed in Dragon Magazine too (I no longer have a copy of the original magazine, but I know it was there).

Official D&D Game Rule FAQ

What you are referring to as FAQ is actually a commentary from Rich (whom I love as a creator by the way) - but not the actual "Official" FAQ.

Many times what an author thought and intended is not what made it into print (damn you dirty editors).

Andy did in fact clarify that Hideous Blow did not generate an AoO but only when making the melee attack - it still generates an AoO when invoking (like all SLA do). Nothing in the original Complete Arcane text nor in any subsequent official errata ever changed this. What Rich inteneded never made it into the final rules.

 

[Dandu]

My main issue with eldritch glaive is that it lets you hammer your rider effects home really easily. Every attack you make provokes a save vs. [whatever]. The fighter isn't doing that with his full attacks.

The phrase "Boomerang Daze" comes to mind.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

If you expand "fighter" to include all noncasters, the Rogue feat Staggering Strike is made of win, too. Every single sneak attack now forces a save with DC = damage dealt, and failure means he can only take a standard action next round, as you continue to full attack his sorry ass? Yes, please!

 

[Sindenky]

I use hideous blow very well with my warlock. I'ts my main attack and the ablity to convert to a ranged touch attack helps but is an addition for the way i built my character.

And i think its better to look at the Blast affecting things as meta magic feats. Like when you expand a fire ball, you don't use the feat then fire ball, you just caster fire ball and it follows new rules that are an alteration if its already exiting rules.

And Hideous blow should never provoke an AoO because it says "Make a melee attack.." only way to provoke an AoO is to channel it into your fists.