4th Edition Talking Points

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

I spent the weekend at a small sci-fi/fantasy/gaming/anime convention demoing 4th Edition--the new Red Box and DM Kit in particular--for my FLGS in exchange for a free vendor badge.

My take-aways:

• The new Red Box is a huge hit and a huge draw to middle-aged dads who are playing with their kids as young as 4 and 5.

I include myself in that description. I'm 31 and spent a couple hours Saturday afternoon playing with my 4-year-old daughter in the vendor area. (A cute blond girl really does wonders for attracting attention. I had the most interaction with passers-by than at any other time during the weekend.)

There is a big opportunity to support this group with targeted meet-ups and adventures, I think. They don't want to play with high school and college kids, they want to play with other parents with early school age kids. Encounters should be perfect, but I don't think it's being effectively targeted to this group. And this group needs published adventures designed for 1-2 PCs, for when it's just a busy mom or dad and one or two kids playing after supper, before bedtime.

• People who haven't played previous editions of D&D really like 4E, as do the non-hardcore crowd. Women seemed to mostly fall into this crowd.

I call them "non-hardcore" rather than casual, because I don't think there is anything casual about regularly playing any RPG. I'd define "hardcore" as having played other editions or especially other RPGs, playing more than one game a week, usually playing for more than 4 hours at a time, and/or min-maxers/char-oppers

There were a few women who played 3.5 or Pathfinder too, and almost all said something like (I'm paraphrasing) "I prefer 4E because it's easier to role-play in 4th Edition because there isn't a rule for everything and whatever you want to do the Dungeon Master can make up a skill challenge".

The Essentials PC builds and rules updates seem to have been perfectly designed and developed for this group (especially after seeing them in action the past month in my role as Encounters organizer and DM at my FLGS).

• People who told me they don't like 4E and were playing Pathfinder or still playing 3.x instead generally hadn't actually played 4E and had lots of misconceptions.

"Complicated fighters", "too simple wizards", "too much like World of Warcraft", and lack of crafting rules were the frequent complaints.

At most this group seems to have played one or two sessions of Keep on the Shadowfell.

This group was set in their beliefs and gave unsolicited opinions as soon as they saw me playing 4E.

I don't think it's worth trying to pursue or support this group with 4E when the parents and new, non-hardcore groups are so much more receptive and probably a larger group.

Personally, I haven't played Pathfinder, though I spent a decade playing 3.x and taking Tikkchik Fen Tikktikk, gnome sorcerer, from level 1 to level 20. I'd love to try Pathfinder, but I'm overbudget on time on money. I really like the art style, the fluff of the Pathfinder world, and the way Paizo does adventure paths.


I will admit that I had extreme doubts about Essentials and Red Box before their release but they seem to be very popular and effective at bringing new players into the game--and hopefully keeping it alive--while being completely optional for existing players. I do think anyone who plays 4E should have the Rules Compendium, though, but only because it is a great, concise rulebook.

I only have two real criticisms of the Red Box now:

1. The branding doesn't match that of the rest of the Essentials line and you can't find the rest of the line at many of the places you can find the Red Box.
2. There are no descriptions of the races in the Red Box. That deserves a serious "WTF were they thinking".

I am not trying to start yet another tedious edition war. I wanted to share what I experienced this weekend and some thoughts on what I think those experiences mean in a biased (see my sig) but fair and useful manner.

 

[ourchair]

• The new Red Box is a huge hit and a huge draw to middle-aged dads who are playing with their kids as young as 4 and 5.

I include myself in that description. I'm 31 and spent a couple hours Saturday afternoon playing with my 4-year-old daughter in the vendor area. (A cute blond girl really does wonders for attracting attention. I had the most interaction with passers-by than at any other time during the weekend.)

There is a big opportunity to support this group with targeted meet-ups and adventures, I think. They don't want to play with high school and college kids, they want to play with other parents with early school age kids. Encounters should be perfect, but I don't think it's being effectively targeted to this group. And this group needs published adventures designed for 1-2 PCs, for when it's just a busy mom or dad and one or two kids playing after supper, before bedtime.

I think this is an important point, and not just in a "kids should play D&D" or "the children are important because they are the future" kind of way but because the only real way to grow the audience for RPGs and take it out of the ghetto of "Quaint Nostalgia" is to make it an accessible hobby.

Also, I think there is great value in allowing parents to vicariously get their fix from teaching their kids how to play these games and spending meaningful quality time together.

• People who haven't played previous editions of D&D really like 4E, as do the non-hardcore crowd. Women seemed to mostly fall into this crowd.

I call them "non-hardcore" rather than casual, because I don't think there is anything casual about regularly playing any RPG. I'd define "hardcore" as having played other editions or especially other RPGs, playing more than one game a week, usually playing for more than 4 hours at a time, and/or min-maxers/char-oppers

There were a few women who played 3.5 or Pathfinder too, and almost all said something like (I'm paraphrasing) "I prefer 4E because it's easier to role-play in 4th Edition because there isn't a rule for everything and whatever you want to do the Dungeon Master can make up a skill challenge".

I think your observations also apply to people who DO have experience in previous editions. Essentials/4E would suit people who want to play but don't have the time to learn all these rules, they can get to roleplaying without having so much homework to do.

My girlfriend ( the eponymous DM of My Girlfriend is a DM ) took away a very interesting point from Shelly Mazzanoble's Confessions of a Part-Time Sorceress, which is that adults, especially those with families, have very few opportunities to socialize outside of work & family and gaming (as a Third Space/Third Place in the Oldenburg sense of the word) provides an opportunity to connect with people that have no relationship with those two spheres.

What I like about Essentials and to a lesser extent, pre-Essentials 4E is that the rules don't get in the way of engaging in this activity.

 

[whearp]

I absolutely agree on the point about roleplay, non-hardcores, and women.

Interestingly enough, many the the 4e detractors that I've run into down 4e for not encouraging roleplay because the rules focus almost entirely on combat. They are so used to a system that has rules and restrictions on even the most superficial and mundane aspects of a character that they can't see past it.

It is precisely the fact that 4e does not bother to make many rules for the non-combat aspects of a game that makes it far better for fun roleplay. My current party is all female players of limited experience with the game, and they are a joy to play with. They have crafted deep and interesting characters using the fluff from HotFL, and they surprise me every session with their in character interactions with each other and my monsters and NPCs. I love being able to just let them go, saying yes, and interacting with them. I don't have to say things like... "No, you cannot do that because you don't have X(Feat/Skill/class feature)" I can safely say... "Yes, that's a really fun idea, and here's how we're going to do it." It's great!

While I agree that 4e is a much easier game, this isn't meant in a negative sense at all. It's easier than 3.X in much the same way as Resident Evil 4 is easier than Resident evil 3. It's more approachable, more balanced, more intuitive, but it is every bit as robust of a game as it's predecessor.

I hope I formatted and presented this correctly, I'm really new to forum posting and such. I just really wanted to get in on this conversation.

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

I think your observations also apply to people who DO have experience in previous editions. Essentials/4E would suit people who want to play but don't have the time to learn all these rules, they can get to roleplaying without having so much homework to do.

Ah, the point I meant to make was: if you asked "Do people who haven't played previous editions or other RPGs like 4E or not?" the answer would be "Yes, very much so.".

I didn't mean to imply anything about any other group of players.

That said, I agree that 4E is great because the core mechanic is so elegant and everything in the game builds off of it. That suits anyone who wants to spend more time roleplaying than min/maxing or rules lawyering.

 

[Mercurius]

I'm still reeling from the idea that 31 is "middle-aged."

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

Life expectancy in the western world is 75-80 years, so 31 is definitely in the middle-third. :-/

"We have a saying in the movement that we don’t trust anybody over 30."
-- Jack Weinberg, 1965

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yep, those sound like 'talking points.'

 

[Herschel]

Nice write-up, and pretty accurate from what appears to be a marketing standpoint.