D&D 5E The Rogue in 5e

[Gort]

I'd like to see the duelist/swashbuckler type of combatant, who fights his enemies honourably and face-to-face, but wears no armour and is more mobile as a result, and I'd like to see him as a core class rather than a half-thought-out add-on class (prestige/paragon/whatever). They never turn out as elegant as a real class does.

 

[Dausuul]

How definitional is sneak attack to the rogue? Should it be an option or an inherent part of the class?

I wouldn't call it "definitional" so much as "the easiest way to explain how a rogue can take part in combat." A fighter's combat contribution is obvious. Wizards have a fearsome array of combat spells, and clerics can heal and buff their friends. Next to all that firepower, what does a small, sneaky person with no magic have to offer? Unless you subscribe to the theory that it's okay to have a non-combatant class in a combat-heavy game like D&D, sneak attack or something like it is the obvious answer.

I would not object to seeing the sneak attack become one trick among many, however.

How should sneak attack work?

The way it works now is okay, but I'd like to see more emphasis on the stealth aspect. In 3E and 4E, rogue stealth goes out the window once a fight begins; it's all about flanking. If rogues had some kind of ability to avoid notice in a battle and "charge up" their sneak attack, then strike for a ton of damage, that would make it feel more sneaky. At least to me.

Should a rogue emphasize a surprise attack? Combat positioning (flanking)? Both?

As my previous answer indicates, I favor surprise attack over flanking.

How should a rogue's social skills be implemented?

That's a tough one. Gonna have to ponder that.

How should a rogue's perceptive skills and trap/lock expertise be implemented?

I think 4E handles this pretty well.

What mechanics does a rogue need for self-defense?

Stealth and evasion techniques. IMO, rogue AC should be crap and their hit points mediocre, but if you take your eye off one for so much as an instant, poof! She's gone. Until a couple rounds later when you find her knife in your back.

What, in the broadest D&D sense, is a rogue?

In a dungeon crawl, the rogue is a stealth and infiltration specialist. Hence why I want to see their combat abilities designed around that model. In a more general sense, the rogue is the one who always has a trick up her sleeve. Locked door? Out come the picks. Being chased by a monster? Improvise a trap. Need a place to lie low for a few days? The rogue knows a man who knows a man.

(This "always have a trick ready" role has traditionally been filled by the wizard. I would like to see the wizard surrender some of that turf--not all of it, mind you, but some--to the rogue, and focus more on countering arcane threats.)

 

[Nivenus]

Rogues are difficult because, of the original D&D classes, they've probably changed the most of the years.

Fighters? Still guys who hand out a beating and can take one in return. Mages? Still the somewhat fragile but powerful spellcasters they've always been. Clerics? Still healers. Rogues? Not so clear-cut.

Rogues prior to 3e were mainly explorer-types, who focused on stealth, getting past obstacles, and thinking up creative solutions to problems that couldn't immediately be solved by combat or magic.

3e, however, really bumped up the rogue's combat capabilities, a process that sort of started with the assassin sub-class in AD&D and the improvement of the sneak attack ability. By the end of 3.5, the rogue was a pretty deadly class in combat and by 4e their role is arguably much more about dealing out lots of damage rather than exploration and sneaking, the way it was in the early editions.

A lot of how the 5e rogue turns out is whether it is built more like the pre-3e or more like the 3e-4e rogue. Given WotC's "modularity" theme it wouldn't surprise me altogether much if 5e tried to incorporate both, possibly with a default rogue that focused on one role and a sub-class that felt more like the other.

Hard to say, though.

 

[Elf Witch]

Ah the rogue which I have to admit is my least favorite class and the class that I have seen cause the most disruption in the game and the one that steps on the most feet.

Sneak attack is good and I think there should be more ways to use it then just flanking using stealth and hide to sneak up and stab someone. I also like the idea of rogues being able to sneak attack anything other than oozes and things that don't really have bodies.

While the thief who robs people blind is an archetype that does have a place in the game I would like to see other types scouts , dungeoneers, spies.

I hate the idea of a rogue getting the ability to use magic without either multiclassing or having something like use magic device.


I would also like to see all characters with a decent dex be able to get access to evasion and uncanny dodge.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Ah the rogue which I have to admit is my least favorite class and the class that I have seen cause the most disruption in the game and the one that steps on the most feet.

Ouch. Maybe we'll finally have some controversy 9the other three core classes generate plenty). I can't say I see who's toes have been stepped on, and the rogue is easily my favorite of the four.

Sneak attack is good and I think there should be more ways to use it then just flanking using stealth and hide to sneak up and stab someone. I also like the idea of rogues being able to sneak attack anything other than oozes and things that don't really have bodies.

It would be nice to see something a little less arcane and more achievable in the conditions for sneak attack. It's not an easy mechanic to get right, though.

I hate the idea of a rogue getting the ability to use magic without either multiclassing or having something like use magic device.

I admit I'm torn on that one. On some level there's a case for it and it makes sense. On another, I'd really like magic to be less ubiquitous, and the rogue is a great place to draw a hard line and force him to be the second nonmagical class.

 

[Elf Witch]

Ouch. Maybe we'll finally have some controversy 9the other three core classes generate plenty). I can't say I see who's toes have been stepped on, and the rogue is easily my favorite of the four.

It would be nice to see something a little less arcane and more achievable in the conditions for sneak attack. It's not an easy mechanic to get right, though.

I admit I'm torn on that one. On some level there's a case for it and it makes sense. On another, I'd really like magic to be less ubiquitous, and the rogue is a great place to draw a hard line and force him to be the second nonmagical class.

You have never played a sorcerer in a game with high level rogue who has maxed out use magic device and has kept every scroll and wand that he has found instead of sharing with the party. He did everything I could do plus all his rogue stuff.

I am not sure I like the idea that just anyone can do magic once you start doing that I think it can take away from the magic classes.

That being said I could see maybe giving some rogues the ability to do minor cantrip type spells by them taking a feat or choosing it as an ability.

As a matter of fact I don't have any issue with most characters having the ability to do minor cantrips because they obviously have some kind of magic talent that they never developed fully.

 

[Ahnehnois]

You have never played a sorcerer in a game with high level rogue who has maxed out use magic device and has kept every scroll and wand that he has found instead of sharing with the party. He did everything I could do plus all his rogue stuff.

I don't know that I've ever seen a rogue use UMD for anything other than a wand of CLW. My point merely being, wow this game is big. In any case, I think the scrolls are the problem in that case. A significantly lower-level caster could accomplish essentially the same chesiness.

 

[Elf Witch]

I don't know that I've ever seen a rogue use UMD for anything other than a wand of CLW. My point merely being, wow this game is big. In any case, I think the scrolls are the problem in that case. A significantly lower-level caster could accomplish essentially the same chesiness.

A low level caster could accomplish some of it by either making or buying scrolls. This player was very clever he used sleight of hand to snatch any scroll or wands that he found before the rest of the party even saw them.

While it irritated me the guy was a blast to play with though I preferred when he didn't play a rogue.

It is big and I think any smart player can manipulate the game to get all the limelight regardless of the class he plays.

 

[TrippyHippy]

From previous editions, the Rogue (or Thief) was the type of Class that appealled to players who liked to play a bit of an everyman type, who didn't have brawn or magic, but instead relied on his skills and wits to get by.

You'll note that when Thieves were introduced they were the only class that had skills. The universal skill system only came about with 3rd edition. Rogues had more skills however, so it was still OK I think.

I think the problem with changing the Rogue into a combat 'Striker' is that there is no real outlet left for those players who actually want to play relatively ordinary people, relying on their wits (and skills!). Essentially, if you stock it up with powers it's just like picking any other character.

 

[Minigiant]

I have an interesting I dea.

What if the Rogue can specialize skills and gained a class features based on which skills he chose.

Acrobatics/Escape/Jump- Evasion
Arcana- Use Wizard scrolls
Athletics/Jump/Climb/Swim- Extra speed
Bluff- Feinting
Diplomacy- ???
Insight- Trap Sense
Intimidate- Demoralize
Perception- Uncanny Dodge
Perform- Bard song
Religion- Use Cleric Scrolls
Stealth- Sneak Attack
Streetwise/Local- Bonus weapons
Thievery/Sleight of hand- Trapfinding

The default rogue would have Stealth, Perception, Acrobatics, and Thievery for the sneak attack, evasive, trap disarmer. In other games, rogues can be different things