Fixing the Sorc.

[Trance-Zg]

sack familiar,
eschew material at 1st level,
bonus 1 heritage feat at 1st level,(draconic, fey, celestial, infernal etc...)
meta magic spells have normal casting time,
diplomacy, intimidate, use magic device and perform class skills,

 

[emoplato]

That's not quite what I meant. Source please. I've been quoting the work under debate.

"These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list(p192) or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding by study."(PHB, 54)
"A sorcerer casts arcane spells."(PHB, 54)
You see while it may permit other spells they need to be obtained in a way in which they can actually understand, in other words through treasure drops or by market(DM's realm of control). A sorcerer is only an arcane caster and has no base capability of obtaining divine. It can't be relied upon to draw a strategy from.

 

[Empirate]

sack familiar,
eschew material at 1st level,
bonus 1 heritage feat at 1st level,(draconic, fey, celestial, infernal etc...)
meta magic spells have normal casting time,
diplomacy, intimidate, use magic device and perform class skills,

So... got any reason for Sorcerers to actually stay in the class?

...

I like Pathfinder's approach of granting bloodline benefits as class features instead of bonus feats: while anybody and their dog can take a feat they like, class features can provide a strong incentive to stay in a class. So those bloodline benefits might be a good start: extra spells known at the levels they're useful at; supernatural abilities that might be useful from time to time; energy resistances/other defensive benefits; specific benefits when casting a certain set of spells etc.

What else can we think of? I'd think long and hard before ditching the familiar. In fact, why not make it a more integral part of what the Sorcerer is "about"? Take it away from the Wizard, fine (maybe give the Wizard some spellbook-related feature instead?). But keep it for the Sorcerer, and make it more interesting, versatile and powerful as you gain levels! Ideas: Familiars that store spell energy; provide a different set of skills than you normally have; can take damage for you; can merge with you for a temporary power boost; can change shape to look like you and fill in as a double; can actually fight well; can learn a spell or two on their own; can transfer wounds/conditions from you to themselves; can provide transportation, crafting, or other utility benefits etc.
All these might be interesting things to incorporate into a familiar at higher levels - not as feats, but as class features, of course.

Other things might be path dependent, allowing one of several options. For example, I can imagine a Sorcerer developing strong metamagic talents over 20 levels (think Incantatrix, but as part and parcel of the base class). Or a Sorcerer developing special summoning/calling talents (take a page from the Malconvoker's and the Thaumaturgist's books). Or a Sorcerer devoted to inspiring others (Bard-, Marshal-, or Dragon Shaman-like class features could be fair game here). Or a Sorcerer going for shapeshifting (Master of Many Forms, Warshaper, and Master Transmogrifist show ways to give good class features for this).

I'm not promoting getting rid of the classes I mentioned, giving all their good stuff to the Sorcerer. But getting some of their good stuff, modify it accordingly (e.g., have it cost spell slots to use those special abilities), and tacking it onto the Sorcerer class might make the Sorcerer appealing to play for more than 5 levels.

 

[emanresu]

Our group has discussd the Sorcerer, and came up with some pretty interesting views.

1) Sorcerers are born with a natural talent, they are not trained, they just do, call it bloodlin, heritage or born under a magic moon, they dont have a master. With this in mind how would they ever figure out that a leg of a grass hopper and holding your hands "this way" and saying "that word" makes me jump really high.The likely hood of combining materials with hand jestures and the right words, all at the same time is so unlikely the class would never exist. Furthermore how many times have you read "he or she displayed magical abilities as a small child, he burnt the barn down" etc

2) So how to, would they ever make or create a magic item? Doing so is a trained ability and since they are an untrained class, how indeed could they?

3) Since they are born with magical talent, our NPC Sorcerers have their spell lists randomly generated with little control over which spells they will develope. Players select spells and thusly are more focused / powerfull because of it.

 

[Trance-Zg]

So... got any reason for Sorcerers to actually stay in the class?

...

Well, as Stream stated we can give sorcerer bonus feat every 5 or 6 level but it's still the same case as wizard. After 5 or 7 levels you'll be running into PrC like there is no tomorrow.

This is just to fix starting "lag" that a sorcerer has in compare to wizard.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

The only way to keep wizards and sorcerers in their class ultimately is to ban or nerf all the full caster PrCs. They're just too good. A lot of non-caster ones are better than the base classes, too, but a) base class non-casters are weak so I'm less concerned to begin with and b) caster PrCs advancing CL is a much greater "keepsake" from the base class than full BAB or advancement of monk class features or the like could ever hope to be; getting stuff on top of that is just inherently going to be brokwn if that stuff is the slightest bit worthwhile.

 

[Trance-Zg]

The only way to keep wizards and sorcerers in their class ultimately is to ban or nerf all the full caster PrCs. They're just too good. A lot of non-caster ones are better than the base classes, too, but a) base class non-casters are weak so I'm less concerned to begin with and b) caster PrCs advancing CL is a much greater "keepsake" from the base class than full BAB or advancement of monk class features or the like could ever hope to be; getting stuff on top of that is just inherently going to be brokwn if that stuff is the slightest bit worthwhile.

Agree,

best solution is to limit full casters to 1/2 max character level(round down) and that makes very interested characters but we kinda derailed from topic here...

 

[kitcik]

Agree,

best solution is to limit full casters to 1/2 max character level(round down) and that makes very interested characters but we kinda derailed from topic here...

That's actually a very interesting prop. So at 20th level, you could have max 10 caster levels and cast up to 5th level spells (which fortunately include Raise Dead).

 

[Trance-Zg]

That's actually a very interesting prop. So at 20th level, you could have max 10 caster levels and cast up to 5th level spells (which fortunately include Raise Dead).

Yes, that makes raising dead epic as you can have it at 18th lvl and no character below 10th level has a hope of getting it as he is meaningless to almost epic caster.

 

[Deset Gled]

Another way to empower the sorcerer is to reign in the wizard a little bit. One great way to do this is simply to increase to cost of scribing spells in their spellbook.

First, remove Boccob's Blessed Book from the game.

Second, increase the number of pages required for each spell. Instead of one page/level, have it go by one page/level^2. That is, a third level spell takes 9 pages, a 4th level spell takes 16, etc. Keep the price at 100gp per page.

Finally, make sure you're only allowing players close to the standard amount of wealth per level. For example, at 9th level, a wizard would normally have 36000gp worth of goods. They would typically get the following spells for free in their book (from levels): 9 first, 4 second, 4 third, 4 fourth, and 2 fifth. By the normal rules, getting 4 extra spells of level 2 through 5 would cost them 5600gp, which is a paltry some that would barely be missed. But with this new method, the same number of extra spells would cost them 20800gp, which is a majority of their wealth. Suddenly, there's an actual cost for a wizard to learn a new spell; not enough to completely nerf them, but enough to stop them from deciding to know every spell ever made.

Of course, the biggest problem with this is holding players to the proper amount of wealth per level.