D&D 5E Basic 5E: Weapons and Armor as style choice...

[Grazzt]

Except Conan often wore armor.

Regardless, I prefer better armor to actually be better. Making loot values reasonable and taking away the need for magic armor bonuses from the math both help in that a weapon or armor that costs more is actually a meaningful drawback. (Especially if your parties have to repair or replace equipment from time to time.)

Can't XP ya, but yeah. This. I agree with this.

 

[ArmoredSaint]

Except Conan often wore armor.

Regardless, I prefer better armor to actually be better.

This what I prefer, too.

 

[Ranganathan]

For me it comes down to what is being simulated: the genre or physics.

D&D has always been on the simulation of physics side of things, and there's nothing wrong with that per se. Except when you want to run a game that actually reflects the source material.

Yes, Conan often wears armor, but more often he wears whatever is available regardless of "AC benefits". Meaning if Conan were run in a D&D game, he's find a suit of armor with a better AC value, and keep it until he found a better one, and a better one after that. Once he found a suit of plate mail, he'd never leave it behind, ever. Because that's how it works in D&D.

But, that's explicitly *not* how it works in any of the fantasy fiction (unless it's specifically D&D novels or short stories). Gimli gets the chain shirt, but he leaves it behind, because it doesn't suit him, even though it's got a higher AC value. Conan leaves chain hauberks all over the place, only to show up in the next story with naught but a loin cloth betwixt him and death. And yet, both Conan and Gimli survive despite having "lesser" armor.

There's certainly a place for physics simulation in arms and armor lists, and D&D has had that for nigh on its entire existence. If 5E is going to swing back to supporting more simulation of genre tropes, exploration role-playing and combat, then it should include things that actually adhere to the source material instead of just what it's always done before.

Again, just as an option among many. Not the one and only way. But that's exactly what's going on. There's one and only way now, I for one would like that to loosen up a bit.

5E style choice over optimal builds.

 

[delericho]

One of the things that's always bugged me about D&D and d20 games is the laundry list of weapons and armor. Some people really like them, I get that, but the way the lists are designed, there's clearly a "right" choice for each. The longsword with it's top dog damage and proficiency bonus in 4E, and plate + shield with it's top AC bonus and minor drawbacks.

I agree with this somewhat. There's no point in offering dozens of 'choices' if one of them is clearly the right answer.

In theory, I liked the 3e model for weapons, where the longsword and battleaxe were similar but not identical - they did the same damage but had different critical modifiers. Thus, there was a trade-off - did you want to crit hard, or often? (Of course, it wasn't perfect...)

Conversely, I didn't like the 3e model for armours, where there were several different Light, Medium and Heavy armours, but in each case there was a clear 'best' choice. I don't think I ever saw a character who wasn't wearing leather, masterwork studded leather, or a mithral shirt (Light); the breastplate or mithral full plate (Medium); or full plate (Heavy). The other armours might as well not have existed.

I thought 4e had the armours about right - each category of armour had an associated feat, and each category was strictly better than the one before. However, all armours within that category were equivalent, in terms of cost, AC bonus, skill penalties, and so on.

What if in the basic core of 5E you have weapons and armor as a style choice instead of a laundry list of bad choices with one clear best choice? What about making damage and AC a class feature. Fighters get mid range damage and top tier AC, but the specific weapons and armor used is completely up to the player.

Mathematically, that would work, although it leads to "no armour" being the optimal choice (no cost, no encumbrance, no skill penalties, and you get the full benefits anyway).

However, I very much wouldn't like it.

 

[Bluenose]

Well, I think the thing is, armor was made for a reason - it works.

Someone in full plate is going to have a massive advantage against a guy in nothing.

Typically the only reason not to wear the best armor is you simply couldn't afford it.

Or, they need to do something else. Skirmishers need mobility, storming parties reduce their armour to cover ground and climb faster, troops who are expected to march long distances dump parts of their gear.

A man in plate-armor can do cart-wheels (believe me, I've seen it) but can't climb or jump too high nor swim due to its weight.

It's perfectly possible to climb a scaling ladder in plate armour, and if you're fit enough other surfaces are workable - I'd probably want my gauntlets off for a vertical assent, mind you, as they aren't good for small hand-holds. As for jumping, leaping into your saddle after the knighting ceremony was a common trick for medieval show-offs, causing great amusement among the ladies if they messed up. What heavier armour does more than limit your mobility is increase your fatigue. It's exhausting to wear if you're exercising, though plate is better in that respect than a chain hauberk.

 

[Zireael]

What heavier armour does more than limit your mobility is increase your fatigue. It's exhausting to wear if you're exercising, though plate is better in that respect than a chain hauberk.

Thanks for reminding me. I'll be tweaking stamina rules in my RPG soonish (as in, tomorrow or over the weekend) and I'll definitely put in some penalties for armor.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Proposal: Why not separate style of armor from heaviness of armor? You can choose to wear light vs. medium vs. or heavy armor, and you can choose to wear plate vs. chain vs. scale vs. leather vs. whatever, and the intersection of those choices gives you your armor type. Light plate is breastplate, medium plate is half plate, heavy plate is full plate; light leather is leather, medium leather is studded leather, heavy leather is hide; light chain is a hauberk, medium chain is chain mail, heavy chain is banded; and so forth.

You derive movement penalties, fatigue, max Dex, and similar attributes from the heaviness of the armor, while the type of armor chosen gives you some special qualities. For instance, heavy armor might give a base of +8 AC and 3/4 movement, and plate might give DR 3/bludgeoning and reduce speed penalties by 5 due to being well-fitted, while leather might give DR 3/piercing and fire and acid resistance 5, so hide armor would be a legitimate choice next to full plate rather than being strictly inferior, and you can be "a fighter who wears chain" and still have a choice between light, medium, and heavy armors.

A side benefit of that system would be partially-donned armor giving some protection. You're attacked in the middle of the night and only have time to put on part of your chain mail, or you've taken off the heavier bits to jump and climb more easily? Your heavy chain is now medium or light, depending on how much you have on, rather than armor being an all-or-nothing affair.

 

[P1NBACK]

Conan leaves chain hauberks all over the place, only to show up in the next story with naught but a loin cloth betwixt him and death.

That's not because Conan just threw his armor away... It's because the Conan stories were not chronological.

You can do this too. Start your campaign at level 5 on session one. The next session after, you can do a flashback at level 1 with your character having "just a loin cloth".

 

[Derren]

Heavy armor makes good sense for a warrior on a horse, who isn't going to slog through an unknown forest, cave, or swap. It also makes sense if you are facing imminent combat, and little else.

Thats pretty much a myth and completely false

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg]Armour Aerobics - YouTube[/ame]

And something more scientific you should really watch:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqC_squo6X4]How to Mount a Horse in Armor and Other Chivalric Problems - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Ranganathan]

That's not because Conan just threw his armor away... It's because the Conan stories were not chronological.

You can do this too. Start your campaign at level 5 on session one. The next session after, you can do a flashback at level 1 with your character having "just a loin cloth".

I take it you haven't read many of the stories then.