Monsters and readied actions, please help save my sanity

[SteveC]

So I'm running the Giants adventure, and there was a little rules tension today.

I intended to use a couple of giants to both move up and attack a character. Normally I do groups of monsters as, well, groups, to make things faster.

I have seen this issue discussed many times, and I would swear that I have read about it being okay to do so.

To be specific: I'm not talking about simply using the ready action, but rather that the GM can move his units as a group. I know all about ready, but what I'm talking about is broader than that.

The specific instance was pretty simple: I was moving a couple of giants up to attack the group's psion, who had decided to move where they could be attacked. The defender has the ability to do punishment based on opportunity actions, and so said "aha! I can get two opportunity attacks at them." After thinking about it, I said no, since they were both taking their actions on effectively the same turn. This did not sit very well.

I'm not usually the kind of GM who tries to punish characters like this (and hadn't done this before) but I thought I was being within the rules.

So if I'm mis-remembering, or taking things out of context, please let me know! (How's that for an opening?)

If you think this was thuggish GMing, rest assured that I didn't do this the rest of the session based on my players' reaction.

So any ideas?

 

[D'karr]

So any ideas?

Even though the creatures are acting at the "same time" for simplicity's sake, they are indeed acting each on their own turn. They have just coordinated their actions.

So the defender should be able to take two opportunity attacks. This gets more complicated if the creatures had "readied" actions to act on the defender's turn. In that case the defender would get no opportunity actions because it's his/her turn. That however does not seem to be the issue at hand.

 

[frankthedm]

The monster are supposed to take separate actions, even if the whole group goes on the same initiative tick. Even a Reaction / Readied Action happens before or after the triggering event.

If the defender was entitled to a "opportunity attack" each time a different foe made an attack, YES, he would entitled to take the swing on each monster in the group you were moving and attacking with "as a unit".

Moving groups of enemies together is a very good time saver in some games. Not so much in 4E because of all interrupts and reactions being slung about. You will sometimes need to count out each square moved and delay between every attack and damage roll with some characters.

 

[the Jester]

frank and D'karr have the right of it. The defender should get one opportunity action per enemy.

 

[Zaukrie]

Make them a swarm, or mob....I think there were mob rules in dungeon, but I may be imagining that.

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[MatthewJHanson]

Think of it like this: If two PCs happened to have the same initiative and they both provoked opportunity attacks from the same monsters, would the monster get to attack them both?

 

[Mengu]

Yeah, barring readied actions, the defender gets one attack per monster's turn. But there is nothing wrong with monsters readying actions, mine often do, for flanking and the like, in which case they are attacking on the same turn, and the defenders aura might be triggered only once. Readying actions just to make sure defender's aura activates only once seems a little spiteful, though highly tactical creatures might do it.

 

[Dragonblade]

Although the monsters may act on the same initiative count, their actions are still separate and distinct, and they are still separate creatures.

Pick one of the giants to act first, and resolve that giant's entire turn before resolving the next giant's turn. If that first giant triggers OAs, then resolve those on that monsters turn.

Then resolve the second giant's turn. Any OA's triggered by the first giant are no longer relevant at this point. The second giant acts as a totally different creature, and any PC can take any OA's it triggers regardless of whether they took OA's on the first giant.

A PC can only take an OA once a round on any given monster, but otherwise there is no limit to how many OA's they can take in a round as long as they are triggered by different monsters each time.

Narratively, you may be able to describe the giants as acting at the same time depending on the scene, but mechanically in the 4e rules there is no such thing as a true simultaneous action. Your players should be able to take separate OAs for each giant independently assuming they both trigger OAs.

 

[Mengu]

A PC can only take an OA once a round on any given monster, but otherwise there is no limit to how many OA's they can take in a round as long as they are triggered by different monsters each time.

This is incorrect (or imprecise terminology). A creature can take one opportunity action per turn. Rounds or number of monsters have nothing to do with it. A solo that takes three turns per round, and ignores the defender's aura 3 times, may provoke 3 opportunity actions, one on each of its turns. Or if a leader gives multiple people actions during his turn that provoke opportunity attacks from a creature, the creature would only get one opportunity action against one of them.

Rule is quite precise. You get one opportunity action per turn, and it must be during someone else's turn.

 

[Dragonblade]

This is incorrect (or imprecise terminology). A creature can take one opportunity action per turn. Rounds or number of monsters have nothing to do with it. A solo that takes three turns per round, and ignores the defender's aura 3 times, may provoke 3 opportunity actions, one on each of its turns. Or if a leader gives multiple people actions during his turn that provoke opportunity attacks from a creature, the creature would only get one opportunity action against one of them.

Rule is quite precise. You get one opportunity action per turn, and it must be during someone else's turn.

You are right. I used poor terminology.

This phrase:

A PC can only take an OA once a round on any given monster, but otherwise there is no limit to how many OA's they can take in a round as long as they are triggered by different monsters each time.

Should say:

A PC can only take an OA once on any given monster's TURN, but otherwise there is no limit to how many OA's they can take in a round as long as they are triggered on a different monster's TURN each time.

Hopefully, I didn't screw that up again.