D&D 5E How Can D&D Next Win You Over?

Sport 1
This is a team sport, played in a confined space, makes use of a ball, has a goal to defend and a goal to score in, and ends by way of clock running out.

Sport 2
This is a team sport, played in a confined space, makes use of a ball, has a goal to defend and a goal to score in, and ends by way of clock running out.

Sport 3
This is a team sport, played in a confined space, makes use of a ball, has a goal to defend and a goal to score in, and ends by way of clock running out.

Sport 4
This is a team sport, played in a confined space, makes use of a ball, has a goal to defend and a goal to score in, and ends by way of clock running out.

Quick, which is Basketball, which is Soccer, which is Field Hockey, Which is American Football.

Conclusion: Basketbal, Soccer, Field Hockey and American Football are essentially the same game and therefore watching or playing one is essentially the same experience as watching or playing the other
Well, field hockey uses sticks, which makes it different. If you'd have gone with rugby then, yeah, they are variants of the game game.
Football (both), rugby, and the like are classified under 796.33 in the Dewey decimal system. Basketball, not using feet, is an odd one out there.

When you consider the wide, wide, wide range of sports in the world from fencing, cycling, swimming, wrestling, tennis, skateboarding, figure skating, gymnastics and the like... a bunch of dudes playing with a ball is a fairly similar experience.
It's a comparable analogy.

...or...If you eliminate all descriptors and nuance that delineate hierarchy or distinction within taxonomic ranks, then by tautological rule, there will be no hierarchy, distinction, rank...or Reductio Ad Absurdum.
But I didn't. I removed the name, the description, the keywords (relevant to the game, irrelevant to individual powers), and damage type (also irrelevant without extra rules).

In short, looking at the actual power itself and just the power, judging it for what it is and not involving feats or items or secondary content. Asking "does the power stand and work and function alone?"

This is not helpful to understand differing tastes/preferences. We can play this game with anything from sports to cars to cultures to fashion to religions to whatever else you would like.

The above really gets absurd if I include all of the actual games that fall under those elements...or if I reduce it further and take the ball component from the equation.
I removed the bare minimal number of elements. The situation becomes moot if it has the "arcane" keyword or "[W]". If the only thing that differentiates a spell from a martial exploit is that one is called a spell than that's unimaginative design. Why even have different powers?

This isn't just the matter of fighters getting spells.
The one person to actually guess picked a spell as an exploit. This particular spell turned the caster (a warlock) into ooze where they slid around the battlefield and burned foes with acid. But the spell was so unremarkable, it could be mistaken for something a rogue could do by changing the damage from acid to untyped. How is that magical?
If all that magic has going for it is different types of energy then how is magic special and not mundane?
 

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Well, field hockey uses sticks, which makes it different. If you'd have gone with rugby then, yeah, they are variants of the game game.

<snip>

When you consider the wide, wide, wide range of sports in the world from fencing, cycling, swimming, wrestling, tennis, skateboarding, figure skating, gymnastics and the like... a bunch of dudes playing with a ball is a fairly similar experience.
It's a comparable analogy.

Reread my reductio ad absurdem. It states "makes use of a ball". It does not state that is the only relevant implement involved. What is interesting here is how revealing this is. Your first thought was "field hockey uses sticks". Yes, I agree. It does. And it is a very important distinction. Notice how when you reduce sports to their base, common elements you lose important nuance (such as making use of sticks as implements):

For Field Hockey (DnD), "Sticks as Implements" (Arcane) is an "Imperative Descriptor" (Keyword) and informs the "Game Dynamics" (Fiction) to the "Participants and Spectators" (DM, PCs and their Players). Reducing the game to 5 base elements that it shares with other games misrepresents the nuance and dynamics of the game, such that it can appear superficially congruent (from a player's and spectator's perspective) with extremely disparate games.


But I didn't. I removed the name, the description, the keywords (relevant to the game, irrelevant to individual powers), and damage type (also irrelevant without extra rules).

<snip>

I removed the bare minimal number of elements. The situation becomes moot if it has the "arcane" keyword or "[W]". If the only thing that differentiates a spell from a martial exploit is that one is called a spell than that's unimaginative design. Why even have different powers?

<snip>

But the spell was so unremarkable, it could be mistaken for something a rogue could do by changing the damage from acid to untyped. How is that magical?
If all that magic has going for it is different types of energy then how is magic special and not mundane?

As above, these elements all inform the Fiction in the same way the Sticks inform the Game Dynamics for Field Hockey. If you do not like Keywords as descriptors that is one thing. If it doesn't work for you, ok. But to say that they do not inform the Fiction because you do not like them is more than a stretch. They are fully functional and are put to use by people to create DnD-relevant fiction by way of the mechanics.

When I'm thinking about cars, the Keywords Red, Scissor-Doors, Coupe, Bull Logo, Gratuitous Vents conjure specific images in my mind...and, if I must, I can use those words to weave "Lamborghini-relevant" fiction. Give me relevant information such as Straightaway, Heavy Cambered Bank, Slick Surface, Diablo (or Aventador...go from Diablo to Aventador and I have an enormously different Lamborghini fiction based on their modus operandi)...then I can really go to town. The same applies when I'm playing 4e and I see Arcane, Fear, Implement or Martial, Rattling, Weapon as Keywords. I can create fiction on those alone. Once you give me those Keywords, if you give me relevant information such as Range, Target, Defense Attacked, Damage, Effect...then I can go to town.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
How was the original 4e magic missile different from a ranger shooting a bow?
Well, it attacked refelex, inflicted force damage, and had no long range, for starters. It was also an implement power, so interacted with feats and a variety of other rules differently. A ranger 'shooting a bow,' could also use any number of different powers, from an RBA to Twin Strike to Spit the Tree and beyond, so that's kinda a big difference, too. Huge, in fact. A ranger shooting a bow is pretty likely to be making two or more attack rolls, which Magic Missile didn't do, and could even be a close blast.

So, really, very, very different.

How many powers can be summed up as "deal some damage and daze"?
A few. How many classic spells can be summed up as "do 1d6/level damage to some creatures." A few. How many monster attacks could be summed up as claw/claw/bite for some damage? Tons. How much of d20 could be summed up as "roll a d20 vs a DC?" Most of it.

You're making no point at all. In order to make a two things seem 'the same' you /strip away the things that make them different/. The fact that you have to strip things away, proves, categorically, that your premise is false, and they are, undeniably, different.


I removed the bare minimal number of elements.
No, you didn't. If your premise, that spells and exploits are 'indistinguishable' were true, then simply removing the source keyword, name, fluff, and class/level would be all that you'd need to remove.

Next time, try prayers, they at least mix weapon and implement.

The situation becomes moot if it has the "arcane" keyword or "[W]".
Actually, there are [W] spells.

If the only thing that differentiates a spell from a martial exploit is that one is called a spell than that's unimaginative design.
Being 'called' a spell means that a power is arcane. Swapping the arcane keyword, alone, would mean it was no longer called a spell. Find a spell that, swapping out /only/ the arcane keyword, is identical to an exploit. Post the spell and the exploit. Or a retraction.
 
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ForeverSlayer

Banned
Banned
Nitpicking and grasping at straws can go on all day long but the fact is, lots of people have found that 4th edition feels "samey" and they don't want 5th edition to be a repeat of that.
 

Nitpicking and grasping at straws can go on all day long but the fact is, lots of people have found that 4th edition feels "samey" and they don't want 5th edition to be a repeat of that.
A lot of people experienced 15 minute adventure days and disliked them and don't want 5th Edition to repeat that.
A lot of people found spellcasters more powerful and overshining other classes, and don't want 5th Edition to repeat that.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
Well, field hockey uses sticks, which makes it different.
And different powers use different keywords, which makes them mechanically, as well as fictionallly/fluff-wise, different. That's the point of the analogy.

If you'd have gone with rugby then, yeah, they are variants of the game game.
I'll be sure to let the respective sports associations know.

Football (both), rugby, and the like are classified under 796.33 in the Dewey decimal system. Basketball, not using feet, is an odd one out there.
All spells, exploits and powers in every D&D edition ever are classified as "things imaginary characters can notionally do in roleplaying games" - so what?

I removed the name, the description, the keywords (relevant to the game, irrelevant to individual powers), and damage type (also irrelevant without extra rules).
On that basis, why not remove damage, too, since that is also "irrelevant without extra rules" (i.e. the hit point, damage and healing rules)? Of the "to hit" bases - they rely on the rules for making attacks to work, too.

The simple fact is that you removed any elements present that might compromise the point you wanted to make - regardless of their importance to the mechanical operation of the rules element represented. That's not an honest argumentative technique.

In short, looking at the actual power itself and just the power, judging it for what it is and not involving feats or items or secondary content. Asking "does the power stand and work and function alone?"
Of course an element of a roleplaying game doesn't "stand and work and function alone"! Alone, it's just contextless information about something that's not really happening in a place that doesn't really exist - how can that possibly "function alone"? Every character ability in every roleplaying game ever needs the context of the general game system in order to have any complete meaning at all.

The one person to actually guess picked a spell as an exploit. This particular spell turned the caster (a warlock) into ooze where they slid around the battlefield and burned foes with acid. But the spell was so unremarkable, it could be mistaken for something a rogue could do by changing the damage from acid to untyped.
Which demonstrates how important the colour description, as well as the mechanical effects (which are different - acid damage is different from weapon damage) are important for the full impact a power has in the game.

If all that magic has going for it is different types of energy then how is magic special and not mundane?
Why should magic be "special" in a magical world? What is "mundane" about a superhero (=8th level fighter, in OD&D taxonomy)?
 

pemerton

Legend
4E's presentation was too jarring for most, and broke people out of immersion (hence all the complaints about feel).

<snip>

3.5 took the time to obfuscate the hell out of those mechanics, and that helped the immersion factor.
I want my immersion in the game to come from the experience that actual play creates in me, not from obscuring the mechanical devices that are creating that fiction.

This is why I have doubts that D&Dnext will win me over. Because, in order to please those who want the rulebooks themselves to pretend to be part of the fiction, it will have to hide the mechanics under such a cloud of fog that I won't be able to find them, let alone use them!
 

pemerton

Legend
I have seen considerable debates as to what the relationship of Essentials is to 4e; whether it is a separate edition, part of 4e, or, as you say, a "betrayal".
My take:

For the existing 4e player it is a set of awkwardly packaged splats (the 2 Heroes books) with some duplicated material (the reprinted races, and some reprinted feats, in the 2 Heroes books), plus some good errata (the MV) plus some stealth errata (some new feats that render some old feats otiose) plus a helpful reprinting of the core action resolution mechanics (the Rules Compendium).

Whether the splat material is any good is a further debate (witness Obryn and Neonchameleon vs Tony Vargas). I don't have a very strong view either way.

For the new would-be 4e player, it is a very poorly packaged set of introductory rulebooks, with massive amounts of duplication (some rules are restated 4 times, across the two Heroes book, the Rules Compendium and the DM book) and ridiculously wordy flavour text.

I think it is obviously not a new edition in any substantive sense: same mechanics but for some errata, intended to play alongside the old stuff, etc - this is even more obvious with subsequent supplements like Heroes of the Feywild. From the marketing point of view it was meant to be a new, more accessible presentation for new players, but if it succeeded at that then I'm surprised at how low the threshold for success in that respect is! Given what a packaging shambles it is by any objective measure.

It has the same AEDU format as every other PHB class- it is not actually simpler in mechanics, as was the fighter of prior editions.
I don't agree with that. The powers of a PHB ranger are generally (not completely - they have some immediate actions) easier to resolve than the powers of (say) a warlock or wizard: lot's of damage, not many complicated effects. And nothing comparable to a fighter's combat challenge or combat superiority.

The comparison would be 2 1st level AD&D wizards, one an MU with magic missile, the other an illusionist with phantasmal force. Same resource structure - but is any going to try and tell me that that illusionist is as easy to play as that MU?

Telling people that they can only perform a certain action if they have a power card and selected it during character creation is a limitation. Telling people they are "out of" a certain maneuver and cannot attempt it until they rest is a limitation. That's what powers are. Your fighter already had the ability to try anything you could think of; it's a make-believe game.
I don't really get this. In Gygax's AD&D only rangers can surprise on a 1 to 3, only monks and thief-acrobats can ablate falling damage. So some capacities in the fiction - being sneakier, being able to roll with a fall - are limited by class. That's what a class-based system is. If the player of a fighter in AD&D says 'I want us to make-believe that my fighter rolled with the fall', I would expect the GM to decline the invitation.

I'm saying you can hit and deal damage, and the ally can move. You might even crit and deal double damage. The outcomes (hit point damage and movement) are the same.
I don't agreee with this, and it's interesting in the context of various comments upthread about multiple attacks.

In a game of round-based combat, everyone can attack two foes, of course. You just have to take two rounds to actually get to roll the d20 against each (but nothing stops you narrating your swings and parries against both of them in the abstract combat round - especially the AD&D 1 minute round). Multiple attacks just increases the number of d20 rolls you get.

The significance of a power that lets you hit and slide enemies isn't that it changes the fiction. Just as a multiple attack ability in AD&D or 3E doesn't change the fiction. But like those abilities, it interacts with the abstraction of combat rounds. Widespread use of out-of-turn movement or attacks is, in fact, a major innovation in 4e, in my view, compared to earlier editions of D&D. It allows round-based, turn-by-turn combat to be used without creating such an impression of a stop-motion world.

Moving allies is a rather odd concept. Characters have always been able to move. Replacing the ability of an ally to move himself is one of those quasi-magical things that make people look cross-eyed at the game; it's not clear to me what's happening there.
What's happening is that the ally is moving. It's nothing to do with magic - it would only look like magic if you assume that the fiction's natural behaviour is stop-motion. As soon as you recognise that stop-motion resolution is an abstraction, the rationale for out-of-turn movement and out-of-turn attacks becomes pretty clear. Mechanically, they have an interesting dynamic (not unlike multiple attacks in AD&D and 3E, as I noted above). And in the fiction, they represent the fluidity of combat (just as multiple attack rolls represent the skill of a combatant).
 

pemerton

Legend
Here's a couple power from somewhere:

<snip>

Quick, which are spells, which are prayers, and which are exploits?
Keywords. Not really. Just denotes power source, and usually a equivalent for other power sources. They're just something to hang other mechanics onto.
Yes, they're important to characters. But that does not make keywords really different. They're a label. And not a label like "fat free" where the content is fundamentally different. As long as you stuck to your role, you could pick powers from your power source and the game would not break.

<snip>

It's a meaningless label
The keywords unlock options

<snip>

And, at the end of the day, you can take a power and swap the keyword and the power does not change. It does not affect the power.
It seems to me that you have missed the most important function of keywords. (A function that, unfortunately, the 4e books spell out only in the discussion of damaging objects - the designers seem to have thought that it was otherwise so obvious it didn't need spelling out.)

Keywords are the principal - sometimes sole - anchor between mechanics and fiction in 4e.

Consider the Deathlock Wight's Horrific Visage power: it is a close blast that attacks Will, does psychic damage, pushes those that it hits, and has the Fear keyword. In the fiction, what is happening when that power is used? The Wight is looking at its enemies (hence a blast - those behind the Wight don't see its face); revealing its true undead visage (normally hidden under a fairer form, I imagine); sending those of weak will fleeing (the push), demoralised (the psychic damage).

Take away the damage type, the fear keyword, and will as the defence, and what do we know about what is happening in the fiction when that power is used? Nothing. The keywords are inelminable from an understanding of that power, of why it won't hurt furniture(immune to Will attacks and pyschic damage). Similarly, the Fire keyword is crucial to explaining why Burning Hands will hurt (wooden) furniture - by setting it alight (attacks Reflex, not Will, and tables don't dodge very well).

It's true that keywords also play a mechanical role, of hanging other feats and the like on them. But that is secondary to their role in mediating the fiction and the mechanical resolution.

It is also true that a typical class wouldn't break if you changed some of it's keywords (though martial PCs without weapon keywords wouldn't work very well, given they have no implement proficiencies). But a magic-user doesn't break if you swap one spell for another. That doesn't prove that there is no meaningful differences between classic D&D spells.

No there aren't. There are a few powers from which you have taken away information. Information like what is actually happening in the fiction. You've taken away what the power does (the keywords), in most cases how it does it (weapon, implement, or neither). You've taken away what sort of attack it is - whether it's mundane and blockable, whether it's a mental attack, whether it's something that attacks the constitution, or whether it's something that can be ducked.
In other words, this.
 


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