D&D 5E 5e and Epic Level for aspiring Deities and Demigods

[Advilaar]

Back in the day, I was lucky enough to run a stable campaign that lasted 6 years under 3 different editions from 2e to early 4e up to level 30.

Although from my lurking, I realize epic is not everyone's cup of tea, I have always enjoyed it. I could truly pull off some epic storylines and encounters that would be well out of reach for a group of 1-10s or 10-20s.

My thoughts on how each edition handled the high levels:

1e. A bit before my time. I suppose I could google what 1e did. But my opinion would be moot because it would be me tainted by someone else's opinion.

2e. Never got to play in one. But, I have seen the material. Interesting.

3e. The epic level handbook is like doing calculus. Two spell systems that do not really mesh: meta magic feat levels and epic spell creation using spellcraft. But, the flexibility, oh my! Good sytem if it did not have so many glaring flaws. No level limit, but numbers got kind of wonky after a certain point. Also, welcome to 20 page character sheets.

4e. A huge step down in power from 3e/2e. Level cap at 30 unless you come up with some homebrew demipower tier. The at wills/encounters/ dailies can be hard to keep up with. You would have thought the group was playing Magic: The Gathering with so many cards out if there was not a battlemap out. Did not like the "dungeoneering" at level 30 deal. Demigods do not need doors and the game is more political.

What would you guys like to see for epic 5e?

 

[Advilaar]

A quick little diddy on an epic"specialty" for you to enjoy

Epic Destiny: Lesser Power.
Requires Advanced Specialty: Demigod.
May require special ascension quest required by DM

-You have ascendended into the ranks of the gods and assume a place in a pantheon. You gain a personal demiplane to design as you desire with the approval of the DM complete with servants and NPC followers including the services of a 20th level high priest.

-You gain all domain powers of a certain domain's spell list in your portfolio as at-will powers.

-Dispersion. At one half hit points or below, you can disperse, taking you out of play for 1d6 days. At that time you can control an aspect. You can not be killed by mortal means but by a method discussed with the DM.

-Aspect. You can create a weaker copy of yourself that is free willed with a powerful and expensive ritual. The aspect has one half your hit points and is a copy of you without the Lesser Power epic destiny. The aspect becomes aware if you are dispersed and opens itself to you. An aspect may never be on the same plane of reality as you other than at the time of creation. An aspect can not be resurrected.

-Godly vision. With concentration, you can see and hear anything happening near an altar to you up to one half your level in miles. To see invisible or otherwise hidden things, you may need additional items or spells.

-Resurrection. You may resurrect as ritual.

 

[Raith5]

This is an important question.

I played very high level BECMI and AD&D but they were mostly over the top monty haul stuff. Basically when i was 13 my friends and I would just chose a demon lord to fight each weekend with our vorpal swords. I am also playing a high paragon 4th ed campaign.

As for DDN the most important thing is that the game has to damn well mechanically work at high level. Aside from 4th ed I have found various editions to dramatically break down around 11th and 12th level due to a range of problems normally due to overly powerful wizards/clerics (especially in 3rd) or PCs have very easy saves (especially in 1st).

All I know is that I want epic to be not be a set tier as in 4th. I think tiers are too rigid. But I still want the game to function up until level 30 - after which you can longer level up. Personally I like the idea that every 6 levels you get an additional specialty and you can choose campaign specific specialties which at higher level echo some of 3rd and 4th level paragon paths/prestige classes/epic destinies.

I also agree that gaming gets more political - so rules about strongholds is essential.

But no desires about epic are going to matter if the game does not work after 12th level or so.

 

[Advilaar]

This is an important question.

I played very high level BECMI and AD&D but they were mostly over the top monty haul stuff. Basically when i was 13 my friends and I would just chose a demon lord to fight each weekend with our vorpal swords. I am also playing a high paragon 4th ed campaign.

As for DDN the most important thing is that the game has to damn well mechanically work at high level. Aside from 4th ed I have found various editions to dramatically break down around 11th and 12th level due to a range of problems normally due to overly powerful wizards/clerics (especially in 3rd) or PCs have very easy saves (especially in 1st).

All I know is that I want epic to be not be a set tier as in 4th. I think tiers are too rigid. But I still want the game to function up until level 30 - after which you can longer level up. Personally I like the idea that every 6 levels you get an additional specialty and you can choose campaign specific specialties which at higher level echo some of 3rd and 4th level paragon paths/prestige classes/epic destinies.

I also agree that gaming gets more political - so rules about strongholds is essential.

But no desires about epic are going to matter if the game does not work after 12th level or so.

No need to be ashamed, friend. Monty Hall campaign indeed. What else would a Demon Lord arm his minoins with? What to do with the 100 + 2 swords and armor? Many folks that are here are about limits and control. Yes, you should have masive amounts of magic stuff, many useless at epic. At least 4e gives you a disenchant option which should be kept.

I agree, tiers need to DIAF.

As far as age 13, how come good stories always have to have low level or be considered "inmature" by the community? Not saying you believe that, but there are posters that think even 2e wizards have to much and advocate 0 level.Played right, epic has far more depth than many of the best low level stories.

Math does need to be balanced, though. 3e is too much 'save or suck" with huge lists of 50 feats all +1 and +2 with a few gems. 4e, the damage does not scale right.

 

[Ahnehnois]

As you've correctly noted, complexity is a problem. Limitations are also a problem.

One of the hallmarks of epic level play should be the removal of those limitations. Wizards get more spells at will. Fighters don't have to roll for some of their attacks. That kind of thing.

I also think that high-level play doesn't have to be balanced or hold together in the same way, because of genre expectations and because not many people get there (or should).

 

[1of3]

That is a very interesting question.

I would prefer, if a new tier (I borrow the term from 4e) would include new assumptions on what the characters do. Like upon hitting name level you are assumed to aquire a stronghold and followers.

Another tier assumption could be: You are pretty much immortal and can travel the planes at your leisure. (4e somehow forgot the second part.)

These tier assumptions shouldn't be forced to enter play at a fixed level, but instead the rules should suggest to add these tier features to characters during a certain range of levels. That would allow a smother integration into the group's narrative.

Not assuming such a feature should not diminish the character's coolness concerning the lower tiers. For example, if you do not want to acquire a stronghold that doesn't impede your being a tough guy, which is topic of heroic tier. If there are still option to imrprove heroicness, a character who does not engange in the stronghold tier shouldn't miss out on those.

In the same way a character who does not take the demigod package shouldn't miss out on lower tier improvements.

So what should a character with a demigod package be able to do:
- Travel the planes
- Do not age
- Set up an HQ in heaven
- Grant spells / forge pacts / invent new spells

 

[Advilaar]

That is a very interesting question.

I would prefer, if a new tier (I borrow the term from 4e) would include new assumptions on what the characters do. Like upon hitting name level you are assumed to aquire a stronghold and followers.

Another tier assumption could be: You are pretty much immortal and can travel the planes at your leisure. (4e somehow forgot the second part.)

These tier assumptions shouldn't be forced to enter play at a fixed level, but instead the rules should suggest to add these tier features to characters during a certain range of levels. That would allow a smother integration into the group's narrative.

Not assuming such a feature should not diminish the character's coolness concerning the lower tiers. For example, if you do not want to acquire a stronghold that doesn't impede your being a tough guy, which is topic of heroic tier. If there are still option to imrprove heroicness, a character who does not engange in the stronghold tier shouldn't miss out on those.

In the same way a character who does not take the demigod package shouldn't miss out on lower tier improvements.

So what should a character with a demigod package be able to do:
- Travel the planes
- Do not age
- Set up an HQ in heaven
- Grant spells / forge pacts / invent new spells

Granting spells/pacts/etc is a interesting thing too. Consider Zeus. Now Zeus is pretty much a bad boy with lightning bolts and everything else, but he was never really known as the healbot type. However, in all games, his clerics can heal.

As far as traveling planes at will, depends on power level. Zeus could just think about his home and be right back in the throne room listening to Hera nag at him about his latest dalliance with some mortal chick. Mere Demigods like Hercules could do amazing things too. But, unlike his daddy, Hercules actually had to travel to Mt Olympus because he did not have spellcaster levels. So, for some demigods, old school travel is still needed.

For granting, maybe the power does not come from the diety himself, but the mere belief in the diety.

 

[Stalker0]

I've played a few epic one shots in 3e and 4e, and this is my experience with Epic:

"Its a lot more fun to talk about than to play".

I love dreaming of my character at epic, thinking about all of the cool abilities, the absolute power, etc. But executing that power is like playing a math game, the game just gets bogged down in numbers, abilities, spells, etc.

To me, epic is more about the story than the numbers, and I would like to see abilities that just bypass the rules and says "You can do this....because your epic". But on that vein, I don't want more power and abilities thrown on the character, just a couple of "signature abilities" that make them awesome.

Some Examples:

Epic Ranger: You can automatically hit one target in range, regardless of any obstacles in your path. You can hit this target as long as your aware of them, even if behind total cover or completely invisible. Nothing can stop your shots.

Epic Wizard: You automatically detect and identify all magics within 200 feet. With an action, you can dispel any number of non-epic magical effects within 200 feet that you wish.

Epic Fighter: You cannot be killed in melee. If a melee attack would cause you to die or fall unconscious, it instead does no damage.

Epic Rogue: Any non-epic creature you sneak attack automatically dies.

 

[the Jester]

I would prefer no explicit epic 'tier' or specific level point, but rather a stylistic choice made by the dm.

Once the dm adopted epic material in his game, the focus ought to shift to the bigger picture. Also, advancement should be slow enough that the game supports a complex, rp-heavy, political style of game as well as combat-focused games.

I think there should be explicit advice for the dm about how to allow for divine ascension, but it shouldn't be a simple character option; a pc should have to actively quest for it, and it should take hard work and major effort over the course of several to many game sessions.

 

[Advilaar]

I would prefer no explicit epic 'tier' or specific level point, but rather a stylistic choice made by the dm.

Once the dm adopted epic material in his game, the focus ought to shift to the bigger picture. Also, advancement should be slow enough that the game supports a complex, rp-heavy, political style of game as well as combat-focused games.

I think there should be explicit advice for the dm about how to allow for divine ascension, but it shouldn't be a simple character option; a pc should have to actively quest for it, and it should take hard work and major effort over the course of several to many game sessions.

Depends on what group. the original group i had that went from 2e to 4e over 30 levels was a very, shall we use a Star Wars term, advocates of 'aggresive diplomacy" that involved whipping out a battle mat and duking it out. Lord forbid, the math sessions taxed my head. particularly because the 20-25 levels were under ELH 3e rules.

Newer group wants all RP all the time and hates combat. Actually, it is refreshing and has changed my style. But when i run into older players from back in the day, they wondered what happened to me? When did I get soft?

But I agree. Can we get epic without calculas II? Drawing extra maps for a stronghold is okay. A follower or two is okay. 50 +1s and +2s and 30 ablities - some which have no bearing - is not. Nor is 20 page character sheets like a former Wizard PC had. Although, I think that guy was a machocist and liked mental pain.