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D&D 5E Too many cooks (a DnDN retrospective)

Why? Why should WOTC get to define my campaign world to that degree? And, why should the DM get to tell me how my wizard casts spells? Should a DM also tell fighter players what feats to pick and rogue players what skills to choose?

It's not defining the gameworld. It's making a class operate a certain way by default, to make it less work to jump start a campaign or character, while also having options to use if you prefer it a different way. Writing a default is not writing in stone that it must be that way.

The fact that I'm a magic user and that magic users exist in the world is more than enough fodder for the DM. Whether I'm a mana mage or Vancian should not be the basis for his world building.

I agree, which is why I'm curious why this matters at all. Having a default method for casting doesn't mean you suddenly lack other options, it just makes the world easier and faster to build, and it makes characters faster to build if you choose the default method.

Whereas I want a toolbox. That was where the game started and that's where I'd like it to go back to. 2e really hammered down the TSR approach to D&D where TSR got to define broad swaths of campaigns. 3e went even further by actually defining a whole bunch of the core world. 4e was just as bad as 3e, despite having a different approach to the baseline world - it was still pretty heavy handed.

... You know you can use fluff that's not in the rule books, right? This seems like a huge non-issue, to me. Further, I played 2nd, and it didn't cater to different casting styles at all. I mean, if we're going to say we want a toolbox, okay, but 2E was not a tool box the way you're making it sound. It was Vancian. That's the only method of casting there was. If, on the other hand, you're talking about the fluff, Simply use what you want, and don't use what you don't want. Just like the mechanics are modular, treat the fluff the same way. Who cares if the deity of the Sun is named "Hjeric" or "Pontificus" or whatever. If you want him to be named "Jim", just call him Jim and be done with it.

I want to go back to the AD&D/Basic D&D approach where most of the game world is undefined by WOTC/TSR or, if it is defined, only in the sketchiest of terms. Don't give me a list of specific dieties (for example), just give me some generic diety types and I'll fill in the proper nouns that fit with my world.

Or you could just ignore the specific setting stuff in the book and come up with your own. It's not like the Gaming Gods will strike you down if you change that stuff.
 

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All I will say on the issue of competence vs. success is that Paizo is a much, much smaller company than WotC.

Just for the sake of argument, let's say Paizo and WotC sold the same amount of books. For Paizo it's a success because the profit margin pays for the investment of the books, and pays their employees. For WotC it is a failure, because WotC is a much bigger company (thus it doesn't pay the employees or the bills), and further WotC's profits have to answer to Hasbro.

Paizo can probably stay afloat with 1/5th of D&D players, WotC can't.

It's also worth noting that we don't know the sales figures for WotC. We cannot say how successful 4e was, because of sales figures. But to make a further point, despite how popular 3e/3.5 was, sales rapidly dropped off too. In the last two years of 3.5's life, books were not selling well. So if purely book sales = failure, then 3.5 was also failing. I figure that 4e actually sold well initially, as even those who didn't like the system bought the core rules before they found out they didn't like them. Continued sales though is where it took a beating.
 

CroBob said:
I agree, which is why I'm curious why this matters at all. Having a default method for casting doesn't mean you suddenly lack other options, it just makes the world easier and faster to build, and it makes characters faster to build if you choose the default method.

Umm, I'd point out that the argument here is that the default IS set in stone. All wizards will cast in X way and all warlocks will cast in Y way. That's the point of this little conversation. That classes must be differentiated by having unique mechanics.

If, OTOH, there is a suggested default, similar to the Builds in 4e or the pregens at the end of the class sections in 3e, then fine and dandy. I got no beef with that. I'm free to ignore that or use it as I like. That's no problems. But, I get the sense that this is not what Remalthalis is arguing for. He wants strictly defined classes where a given class has specific mechanics that are not shared by other classes.
 

Umm, I'd point out that the argument here is that the default IS set in stone. All wizards will cast in X way and all warlocks will cast in Y way. That's the point of this little conversation. That classes must be differentiated by having unique mechanics.

If, OTOH, there is a suggested default, similar to the Builds in 4e or the pregens at the end of the class sections in 3e, then fine and dandy. I got no beef with that. I'm free to ignore that or use it as I like. That's no problems. But, I get the sense that this is not what Remalthalis is arguing for. He wants strictly defined classes where a given class has specific mechanics that are not shared by other classes.
Okay, well, I still don't see what's wrong with that. If Wizards are Vancian and Sorcerers are Mana, and you want to play a Wizard who has mana, either outright roll a Sorcerer and call it a Wizard, or ask the DM if you can just switch out those features. It's really not a huge problem. Hell, I wouldn't consider it a problem at all.
 



I'd take you up on that offer...
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/The-Upside-Irrationality-Unexpected-Benefits/dp/B004NSVE50/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353761869&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=Dan+Arielly"]The Upside to Irrationality: the Unexpected benefits of defying logic at work and home[/ame] by Dan Ariely.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Honest-Truth-About-Dishonesty-Everyone---Especially/dp/0062183591/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1353761869&sr=8-2&keywords=Dan+Arielly"]Predictably Irrational[/ame] by Dan Ariely.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Taste-Irrationality-Predictably-Irrational-ebook/dp/B003WJRE7I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353761869&sr=8-1&keywords=Dan+Arielly"]Here's a free ebook with chapter samples[/ame] from both of the above books.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Honest-Truth-About-Dishonesty-Everyone---Especially/dp/0062183591/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1353761869&sr=8-2&keywords=Dan+Arielly"]The (Honest) Truth about Dishonesty: How we Lie to Everone, Especially ourselves[/ame] by Dan Ariely.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Sway-Irresistible-Pull-Irrational-Behavior/dp/0385530609/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353771877&sr=8-1&keywords=Sway]Sway: The Irresistible pull of Irational Behavior[/ame] by Ori and Rom Brafman

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Stumbling-Happiness-Daniel-Gilbert/dp/1400077427/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1353762210&sr=8-3&keywords=Paradox+of+Choice"]Stumbling on Happiness[/ame] by Dan Gilbert.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/The-Invisible-Gorilla-Intuitions-Deceive/dp/0307459667/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353762496&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Invisible+Gorilla"]The Invisible Gorilla: How our Intuitions Deceive Us[/ame] by Christopher Chabris and Daniel Simons.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Made-Stick-Ideas-Survive-Others/dp/1400064287/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353762588&sr=8-1&keywords=How+to+make+things+stick"]Made to Stick: Why Some Ideas Survive and others Die[/ame] by Chip and Dan Heath.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/The-Paradox-Choice-More-Less/dp/0060005696/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353762210&sr=8-1&keywords=Paradox+of+Choice"]The Paradox of Choice: Why More is Less[/ame] by Barry Schwartz

I've listed the books in order of what's best first, with the caveat I haven't read the last two books, but I mean to. There are other books on the topic, but I haven't read them yet.

There's some talks on TED.com by these authors that go over some of the materials in their books, in more bite sized chunks:
Dan Gilbert: Why we make bad decisions
Barry Schwartz: Paradox of Choice
Dan Ariely: Our Buggy moral code
Dan Ariely: Beware conflicts of interest.
 
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Okay, well, I still don't see what's wrong with that. If Wizards are Vancian and Sorcerers are Mana, and you want to play a Wizard who has mana, either outright roll a Sorcerer and call it a Wizard, or ask the DM if you can just switch out those features. It's really not a huge problem. Hell, I wouldn't consider it a problem at all.

Here's the issues...

On point 1) just roll a Sorcerer and call it Wizard:

The same thing was suggested for 4E and many people hated that. They wanted an archer Fighter and were told to roll a Ranger and call it "Fighter". Many people rebelled. So this idea is a non-starter I think.

On point 2) ask the DM to switch out those features:

Now we come down to presentation of the Player's Handbook. And all of us trying to figure out what is the best way to present the information.

There are two likely directions we can go. The first option is that in the Class section, each of the spellcasting classes have described one specific method for casting spells. Their "default" as it were. Like in the earlier packets for example, Wizard uses standard Vancian, Cleric uses pseudo-Vancian, Warlocks use encounter powers, Sorcerers use spell points, Druids maybe have a whole nother method for casting spells.

This seems to be a popular opinion with a lot of you.

Then, what would probably be written back in the Magic chapter or even in the DMG are instructions (in a module sidebar) that explains how to trade out a class's casting mechanics for another class's mechanics (as agreed upon by the DM and players) to achieve the style of magic their particular campaign should have.

The second direction is to not include actual casting mechanics in any class's description. Rather, it goes into the narrative and class's Story about how one becomes spellcaster class X, why you do it, what's the method for acquiring and casting the magic, etc. but no actual game mechanics right there and then. Instead, following the listing of all the classes we go right into the Magic chapter, where it lists out the 5+ different styles of casting mechanics, describes how they work, what the advantages and disadvantages are, and why certain classes might favor certain mechanics over others (for best exemplifying the class's Story). This section also then gives the spell lists for each individual class as well (like was typical for all pre-4E games, where spell lists appeared back in the Magic chapter, rather than within the Class description.)

So the question then becomes... which method for displaying the information is the easiest to understand, makes the most sense, and is least likely to annoy or piss off a larger precentage of the player-base?

Because that's the real issue here. Which group is bigger and/or more likely to put up a fuss (even going so far as to not actually play the game, because they felt they weren't being catered to?) Those who think each class needs a defining casting mechanic that is listed within their class description because otherwise the class doesn't have an identity... or those who can't stand certain mechanics to the point that they'd freak out if its even hinted at that WotC thought certain classes "should" have them, because they made them the class's default (even if it was easy enough to swap out.)

To tell you the truth... I don't know which group is bigger or more likely to put up a fuss. Speaking personally though... if the goal of the game is to create an edition that can harken back to ANY previous edition of the game... I would not want to see defaults put in place that run counter to how certain editions ran those classes. I'd rather keep everything more open and less defined, and then have chapters in the book that give examples of which modules to choose and use to recreate any specific past edition. Do as little as possible to define the game by any specific edition's mechanics, but instead present the various options equally and let the player choose.

Because it's all well and good to give the Wizard an "identity" by stating in its class description that its traditionally a Vancian caster (but that you can swap it out as a module if you want)... but that does you no good if that only makes like 20% of the player-base actually happy.
 
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Umm, I'd point out that the argument here is that the default IS set in stone. All wizards will cast in X way and all warlocks will cast in Y way. That's the point of this little conversation. That classes must be differentiated by having unique mechanics.

If, OTOH, there is a suggested default, similar to the Builds in 4e or the pregens at the end of the class sections in 3e, then fine and dandy. I got no beef with that. I'm free to ignore that or use it as I like. That's no problems. But, I get the sense that this is not what Remalthalis is arguing for. He wants strictly defined classes where a given class has specific mechanics that are not shared by other classes.

Here is what I'm arguing for:

A wizard is a traditional vancian caster UNLESS THE DM CHANGES THIS.
A sorcerer is a mana point caster UNLESS THE DM CHANGES THIS.
A warlock is a hybrid at-will/encounter caster UNLESS THE DM CHANGES THIS.
A Cleric/Druid is a spontaneous caster UNLESS THE DM CHANGES THIS.

The rules for "UNLESS THE DM CHANGES THIS" are found the DMG, and the DM can choose to
a.) force all classes to fit a certain style to fit his world
b.) eliminate a certain style that doesn't fit
c.) allow the players to free choose if he doesn't care
d.) go with the PHB defaults on the matter.
 

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