It was a very good thread (and hopefully more good to come). Unrelated to the crux of the thread though, I would still like to hear "deep immersionists" (as Crazy Jerome likes to call them) thoughts on
this post and @
AbdulAlhazred expansion
here. I would start another thread on it but I'm uncertain it would be of much use other than to sate my curiosity. I do think it might give us some insight into "immersion only as 1st person actor" gamers versus "immersion as 1st and 3rd person omniscient capable" gamers. In my estimation, scene-framing games are more "functional" for the second group of gamers as referencing of and friendliness toward metagame devices/techniques diversifies the potential scope of the pressures that can be leveraged and thus broadens the resultant fiction.
full disclosure, I skimmed the post in question because I am cooking dinner. Provided we treat this as a dialogue, not a game of gotcha I am happy to expain my position. This is larrgely going to be me thinking outloud so just keep that in mind.
First let me say, if we begin by questoining the very validity of immersionists and their experiences, by either calling everything a construct or by dissecting the game until you define away 1st person experiences, I dont think you will ever understand where immersionists are coming from. If that is genuinely your aim, I think the better bet is to take people at the word and if you genuinely dont understand somethign ask about it.
for me, my very first experience roleplaying was powerful. I FELT-LIKE-I-WAS-THERE. This was different to me from any other sense of immersion I had experienced to that point in books or movies. Part of it was the fact that many books take third person omniscient view (as you explained in your post) and part of it was, even in highly immersive first person narratives like Dracula, the characters are under the control of the author, not you. That combination of 1) playing a character from a first person perspective, b) being in control of the character and 3) having the world external to my charcater governed by something consistent snd external from myself (the GM) added up to that powerful experience. I was simpy there in a way I never had been before.
Does any of this mean you can never have metagame mechanics and never do anything outside your character? No. But for it does mean the more things in a game that require that, and the more things that blur the line between my character and things outside him, the more it disrupts that experience of being there. This is one of the reasons why I really like to rp things from first person and not leave that stuff to dice. For me, a very large part of feeling like I am the character is speaking as the character and thinking like the character.
Nthing is 100% perfect and you can dissect anything through examination or questioning to the point that it seems ot fall apart, and I do see a lot of people try to do that with immersion. Doesn't change my experience at the table. Doesn't change that this is what I feel and why I feel it when I am playing.
Also let me say, I am not totally opposed to intrusive elements if they are worth it for the game is supposed to be. LIke I have said before, I play savage worlds and dr who. Botht those games are genre emulative. In the case of dr who, they even try to replicate many of the features of the show with things like how they manage initiative (with speakers and movers going before attackers) and story points can be pretty powerful in the game. I still like dr who as a game. If someone uses a bennie in savage worlds, I wont freak out and claim my immersion has been ruined. It isnt quite as exteme or black and white as things tend to be framed in online discussions (where everything is carved up and defined as people take sides).
For me, the reason it is important to be mindful of immersion is because its why I am there in the first place. And because i design games, and the first customer I need to satisfy is myself, I think getting how things like shifting from out of character point of view affect me is crucial.
In my own games for example, I really like to focus on investigations. I was never very satisfied with Laws approach in Gumshoe, though I have played it and i do admire both his writing and design work, because it didn't speak to my sense of immersion. I found that angle very frustrating both as a player and GM. I could see how people who say investigations as scenes linked by clues would feel that way. But I never saw investigations as scenes linked by clues, I saw them as a blend of setting and scenario. So when that is the point of view I design investigations from, and while we do have things ike social skills in our games (because I understand that most players expect them) I talk about using them in a way that doesn't interfere with in character dialogue if that matters to the group.
Sorry to ramble a bit. But happy to answer any further questions you might have if any of this resonates Manbearcat.
