Planescape Do You Care About Planescape Lore?

[Shemeska]

I thought it was 3.x that really did the hatchet job on the factions. Granted, the old 2e versions had grown a bit stodgy, but I thought the 3e version just chopped stuff out without really adding anything. 4e then added nothing again, but just grudgingly gave minimal shape to a scant few favoured factions, so neither 3e nor 4e are due any honour for it, IMO.

3e pretty much left them out initially, but mentioned that factions existed within Sigil. In 3.5 several of the factions were detailed and given Prestige Classes in the Planar Handbook (Sigil was also given a decent post-Faction War writeup in the same book).

4e (largely as a result of Rob Schwalb's really good writing) had some material on some of the factions in Dragon/Dungeon, but at times the presentations of material from Planescape (Brian James added some material back in with his work in 4e's Demonomicon, and other bits popped up in other books) suffered to an extent due to being forced to alter itself to fit into the 4e World Axis cosmology where half of the alignments had vanished along with many of the planar races (or been turned into things different in all but name).

 

[pemerton]

The Astral Sea vs. the Elemental Chaos struck me as being even better akin to the old school Law vs. Chaos dichotomy, with the Prime Plane being the Neutral.

Agreed -I'm glad someone else has noticed this!

I care about Planescape lore to the extent that they're using Planescape things.

If they're going to put Modrons in the MM, but have them be totally different from the Modrons we've seen before, that's just annoying.

My concern with this is that many of these creatures - daemons, for instance, but also modrons - existed before and independently of Planescape. I don't see why Planescape gets a monopoly on them any more than Greyhawk, or FR, or Eberron gets a monopoly on what orcs are.

Yes planescape was an additive setting. 4e lore was largely a SUBTRACTIVE endeavor. It TOOK things away rather than giving things like plane scape did.

4e gave us the Feywild, the Shadowfell, the Elemental Chaos and the primordials. A new theory of the Blood War. Bael Turath and Akhosia. And the empire of Nerath destroyed by gnolls.

Not to everyone's taste, it seems, but this is stuff that the game gave us.

 

[RichGreen]

4e gave us the Feywild, the Shadowfell, the Elemental Chaos and the primordials. A new theory of the Blood War. Bael Turath and Akhosia. And the empire of Nerath destroyed by gnolls.

Not to everyone's taste, it seems, but this is stuff that the game gave us.

I loved Planescape but some of the 4e additions were great, particularly the Feywild. I ran a blog carnival before Christmas where posters suggested what they thought the Next cosmology should look like. There were some cool posts - check it out here.

Cheers


Rich

 

[Weather Report]

4e gave us the Feywild, the Shadowfell,

The 3rd Ed MotP has The Plane of Faerie and The Plane of Shadow, but 4th Ed definitely expanded upon them.

It's easy to convert Planescape to The World Axis cosmology (mix them up).

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

My concern with this is that many of these creatures - daemons, for instance, but also modrons - existed before and independently of Planescape. I don't see why Planescape gets a monopoly on them any more than Greyhawk, or FR, or Eberron gets a monopoly on what orcs are.

Because discussions of the planes and planar creatures pretty much get hijacked by a group of people who end up screaming "BECAUSE PLANESCAPE" when any changes are suggested or there's any hint that the core cosmology might not be the Great Wheel. The same group of folks also emphasize it's an optional part of the game, except, you know, don't change a freaking thing, BECAUSE PLANESCAPE.

If it were Forgotten Realms folks acting this way about elves and wizards, no one would take them seriously, but for whatever reason, the fringe members of Planescape fandom pull it off.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The 3rd Ed MotP has The Plane of Faerie and The Plane of Shadow, but 4th Ed definitely expanded upon them.

It's easy to convert Planescape to The World Axis cosmology (mix them up).

I've always been sorry the Mirror Plane never got much traction beyond a few monsters in later 3E monster books. I love that plane; it's a way more fun transitive plane, IMO, than having two soupy places to wander to get to different locales. (I never ended up playing 4E, but I did admire the cosmology for merging them into one as well as sort of merging Spelljammer into it.)

 

[tangleknot]

+1 for Planescape, it is still my favorite D&D setting.

With that said I can understand how annoying it would be if your playing another setting and your forced to accept "planescape's" take on the multi-verse. Every setting should have its own unique way at looking at the planes, or not depending on how isolated the world is. I've always assumed the Great Wheel was a Planars way of looing at the multi-verse and trying to make some sense of it (BTW planescape cannon suggests that even the Great Wheel is not the perfect model), but from a Primers perspective it ought to look far different.

 

[Greg K]

I voted "No". I have never been a fan of Planescape*. Keep it as a separate product, but don't tie the default cosmology of other settings to it. Let every setting have its own cosmology.

*I also never cared for the Great Wheel and was not a fan of 4e's Cosmology (the Feywild being the exception). I am fine with just a world for the campaign and one or more of the following depending upon the campaign: a heaven like place, the Abyss, the nine hells, the feywild, and/or a Spirit Realm (for things like shamanic spirits, familiars, etc.).

 

[Kinak]

My concern with this is that many of these creatures - daemons, for instance, but also modrons - existed before and independently of Planescape. I don't see why Planescape gets a monopoly on them any more than Greyhawk, or FR, or Eberron gets a monopoly on what orcs are.

It's not really Planescape-specific.

If the 5e orc was completely different than the one in Greyhawk or FR lore, that would also suck. Granted, Eberron has it's own intentionally divergent take on orcs, so I don't think that's really comparable.

Now, if modrons or daemons or what have you had several conflicting bodies of lore, those should be reconciled somehow. But Planescape gets a "monopoly" by virtue of being the only setting that talked about them and how it expanded, rather than undermined, non-setting sources.

But if they were talking about making orcs, say, humans twisted by dark powers instead of their own race... I'd be annoyed with them breaking backwards compatibility, particularly if they included rules elements that represent that change in fluff.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

It's not really Planescape-specific.

If the 5e orc was completely different than the one in Greyhawk or FR lore, that would also suck. Granted, Eberron has it's own intentionally divergent take on orcs, so I don't think that's really comparable.

Now, if modrons or daemons or what have you had several conflicting bodies of lore, those should be reconciled somehow. But Planescape gets a "monopoly" by virtue of being the only setting that talked about them and how it expanded, rather than undermined, non-setting sources.

Sort of like 4E halflings, gnomes, elves and dragonborn?

Sorry, no, Planescape aficionados are no different than other fans who've objected to changes made to previous versions of beloved properties.