D&D 5E What belongs in a $50 PHB?

[Derren]

This latest fake outrage I think is just the current sneer-du-jour for anti-D&D Next people to complain about.

I see that you live in your own world and also continently overlook all the posts where people balk at that price tag.
You also forget that the $50 price tag is higher than what the previous books costed (yes, even inflation adjusted) and that D&D is not in the cushy position of market leader any more and having lost a lot of their once loyal fanbase to other brands and now has to work extra hard to recapture them, instead of relying that D&D players will buy the next D&D books.

 

[Wulfgar76]

I see that you live in your own world and also continently overlook all the posts where people balk at that price tag.

Why do I suspect that those who balk at the price tag are: 1- dedicated D&D Next detractors, and, 2- had no problem shelling out $50 for the Pathfinder Core Rulebook

It must have been all that awesome DM content right?

 

[Mistwell]

Assuming NPC's are made the same as PC's in 5e you could use them as antagonists...

They are. Just like Pathfinder, you can just create a character using the normal character rules, and use that as an NPC.

the question then becomes does it have everything else you need... rules for traps,

You do not need traps to play D&D, and frankly there are plenty of traps in the Player's book in the form of spells and equipment and such anyway if a DM wants to make some up.

magic items,

You do not need magic items to play D&D, and specifically with 5e they are intentionally taken out of the assumptions for character advancement. Magic items are rare, other than the few already in the players document (healing potion, mithril chain, dragonskin armor, a few other things like that), and it's assumed one play style includes no magic items.

treasure placement, encounter building,

Both of these are no longer like they were in 3e and 4e. There is no expectation of treasure of any kind built in to character advancement (just like magic items). The DM is free to hand out whatever sums they think are appropriate, and all the types of coins and gems and such are in the PHB. There is some "fluff" advice, but it's not the "rules" and you don't need it to play the game (and it's really just random tables that it explicitly says don't have to be followed).

As for encounter building, it's very much left up to the DM. There is some "fluff" advice, but it's not the "rules", and you don't need it to play the game.

etc. Pathfinder's core book has all the things a DM needs on top of having PC's and NPC's constructed the same way. My total argument isn't it's complete because it has NPC rules for antagonists... it's that it has everything a DM needs from disease rules to trap rules to weather rules on top of having NPC creation for antagonists that you need to run the game... The stuff a PHB doesn't usually contain. It is nit-picky because you are zeroing in on this paricular issue when there is so much more that the corebook contains beyond what a PHB normally does that is part of running the game.

You ONLY need the PHB of 5e to play the game, given the standards you've applied. If the NPCs-only standard is a fair standard in your opinion (and I am assuming it is for this argument), then by that standard you really only need the PHB to play 5e. None of the DM stuff and Monster stuff is "necessary" to play the game. The DM can create a campaign using just the PHB, NPCs created using the PHB, and the standard skill checks and combat rules in the PHB. There's more than enough in the Player's book to run everything you need to play the game, if NPCs-Only is what you want to do with the game.

 

[Imaro]

Why do I suspect that those who balk at the price tag are: 1- dedicated D&D Next detractors, and, 2- had no problem shelling out $50 for the Pathfinder Core Rulebook

It must have been all that awesome DM content right?

I'm not a D&D Next detractor but not liking 4e pushed me towards exploring other games and yes most give you everything you need in a single core book for around the price WotC is asking for a single PHB. Now this isn't necessarily a deal breaker for me but it does give me some pause when I have all these other games in single book format for around the same price as the PHB for 5e and they have "all that awesome DM content"? My question to you is why shouldn't it... It's my money and these games are competing for it so explain to me why it shouldn't give people pause or be be a discussion point?

 

[frogimus]

Am I the only one that feels like these Pathfinder arguments are like vegetarians complaining about the price of bacon?

 

[Derren]

It must have been all that awesome DM content right?

Yes, paying 50% to 75% less for a game is quite awesome.

By the way, nice "with us or against us" stance you have there.

 

[Imaro]

They are. Just like Pathfinder, you can just create a character using the normal character rules, and use that as an NPC.



You do not need traps to play D&D.



You do not need magic items to play D&D, and specifically with 5e they are intentionally taken out of the assumptions for character advancement. Magic items are rare, other than the few already in the players document (healing potion, mithril chain, dragonskin armor, a few other things like that), and it's assumed one play style includes no magic items.



Both of these are no longer like they were in 3e and 4e. There is no expectation of treasure of any kind built in to character advancement (just like magic items). The DM is free to hand out whatever sums they think are appropriate, and all the types of coins and gems and such are in the PHB. There is some "fluff" advice, but it's not the "rules" and you don't need it to play the game (and it's really just random tables that it explicitly says don't have to be followed).

As for encounter building, it's very much left up to the DM. There is some "fluff" advice, but it's not the "rules", and you don't need it to play the game.



You ONLY need the PHB of 5e to play the game, given the standards you've applied. If the NPCs-only standard is a fair standard in your opinion (and I am assuming it is for this argument), then by that standard you really only need the PHB to play 5e. None of the DM stuff and Monster stuff is "necessary" to play the game. The DM can create a campaign using just the PHB, NPCs created using the PHB, and the standard skill checks and combat rules in the PHB. There's more than enough in the Player's book to run everything you need to play the game, if NPCs-Only is what you want to do with the game.

And here I thought you were interested in an honest discussion... instead you apply totally different standards to the books even though I fairly applied the standards of NPC as adversaries to both books. Cool [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION] , I tried to engage you honestly and it went nowhere just like I expected.

 

[Wulfgar76]

I'm not a D&D Next detractor but not liking 4e pushed me towards exploring other games and yes most give you everything you need in a single core book for around the price WotC is asking for a single PHB. Now this isn't necessarily a deal breaker for me but it does give me some pause when I have all these other games in single book format for around the same price as the PHB for 5e and they have "all that awesome DM content"? My question to you is why shouldn't it... It's my money and these games are competing for it so explain to me why it shouldn't give people pause or be be a discussion point?

Sure, "Is this book worth my money" is a totally valid discussion point. And you can create any deal-breaker you like. Goodness knows this forum exist in the first place because of the various reasons people refuse to buy D&D Next.

In any case: "It needs to have DM content (like Pathfinder) or $50 is too much!" - is a wholly subjective opinion, and a bit of a red herring. Does $10 worth of DM-tips really matter when you get down to it? Would you buy it at $40 with zero DM content?

I think ultimately we both know the thing that will make the D&D Next PHB worth the price tag is the stuff people are expecting to be in the PHB: the races, classes, feats, game rules and spells - the same stuff that is typically in a Dungeons & Dragons players handbook.

That said, my expectations are high for a $50 book, but I really don't care if the PHB is a 'complete game'. The whole purpose of the starter set is to provide a budget-conscious, easy-entry, open the box & play product. The PHB has never been that sort of product.

 

[Mistwell]

And here I thought you were interested in an honest discussion... instead you apply totally different standards to the books even though I fairly applied the standards of NPC as adversaries to both books. Cool [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION] , I tried to engage you honestly and it went nowhere just like I expected.

I'm honestly not getting it. I applied standards fairly. Be specific, name one thing I did that was a "totally different" standard.

What is it about magic items, treasure, encounter building, and those things, which you think are necessary to play 5e? I'm actually playing it, and none of that is needed. Indeed, if you look at how lacking in specifics it is, I think you'd understand why I am saying you don't need it. The level of specifics on this stuff for 5e is incredibly wing-it in nature, it's totally different from the more regimented structure you find in 3e and 4e (for good or ill). You honestly don't need a single thing in the DMs book to play 5e.

I am honestly saying that, IF you use NPCs as simply characters from the PHB (which you can do in 5e), then you really only need the Player's book to play it.

It's a real position, not a pretend one. The DMG is, in my opinion, looking to be a book of optional rules, magic items (which are also options), and DMs advice similar to the Pathfinder Gamemastery Guide (which is an optional book for Pathfinder). It's not needed to play 5e, from what I can tell. At least, from the Playtest docs, that's what it's looking like.

 

[Derren]

The whole purpose of the starter set is to provide a budget-conscious, easy-entry, open the box & play product. The PHB has never been that sort of product.

And games with a $50-$60 complete core book also manage to make smaller starter sets costing less than that.