D&D 5E What's the rush? Has the "here and now" been replaced by the "next level" attitude?

It really come down what I said before.
If the base game locks a major aspect of the character at a higher level, the player will often....
...rush to that higher level
...ask for a house rule to get that aspect earlier
Or
...ask to include a playbook that gets that aspect earlier.


Rushing through the levels is the easiest one to get. The DM won't always give you a house rule or allow a supplemental book.
 

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The problem with this is that the stop and smelling the roses style play is leveling very quickly and that can lead to the game getting to high levels and the DM saying enough,

The other is just making the other style more miserable more impatient and telling them how dare you play in badwronghun style.

Which would be my point. How does the game system encourage 'slow play'?

In game, incentives are treasure and XP. Both of which are antithetical to 'stop and smell the roses'.

This was a table issue, but on page 12 it becomes a system issue.
 

But, you are now giving Minor Creation (or more specifically the ability to animate something dead) at a lower level.

Minor Creation is a 4th level spell in the SRD that lets you create a simple object, like a club or wooden stake - something you also do with Wish - "I wish for a club." I think it out to be fully obvious that Wish however is a more potent spell than Minor Creation.

Which makes that lower level more powerful since it now has abilities that it lacked before.

This is only true if the newly provided capabilities do not come at the cost of forgoing other equally powerful or more powerful abilities. Since the newly provided abilities are actually quite weak, and "Vancian" style magic always inherently involves forgoing something whenever you take something, there is no power creep.

But, that's not what you are talking about. You are effectively now giving Alter Self to a 1st level character.

What??? No. No I'm not. The 1st level equivalent of Alter Self is the existing spell Disguise Self, or skill enhancing utility spells like Spider Climb. No one 1st level spell is as powerful as Alter Self, either before or after my alterations.

You are allowing a lower level character access to new powers which it didn't previously have. Granted, it's not as powerful as the full effect, but, it's still more powerful than not having the effect at all.

Yes, but it is not more powerful than spells that you must forgo to either obtain (in the case of a Sorcerer) or prepare (in the case of a Wizard) the spell.

Ok, see, now it goes into territory that we're no longer even talking about the same game. I don't play your game. Your game is great and all, but, playing guess the mechanics isn't much fun.

I'm not asking anyone to play 'guess the mechanics'. I'm addressing broad claims by people that this or that feature specific to a specific implementation of a classed based game implies that the problem is generic to all classed based games. People are mistaking things specific to a subclass as being generic attributes of the superclass. My implementation is proof that this is false, and I cite it because I know its rules far better than I do 3.X or Pathfinder. As someone familiar with Pathfinder has since pointed out, Pathfinder also has similar options.

Of course prestige classes aren't available if it takes you THREE YEARS of play to get to 7th level. You can make them available if you want, no one is going to take them because it takes so long to get there. Of course none of the potent things you can do aren't available if you limit the game to single digit levels.

I think that this vastly underestimates just how broken 3.5 became in later years. There are many 3.5 optimized builds that are fully broken by 7th level, and heck, arguably just any well built Wizard, Cleric, or Druid was broken in 3.5 by 7th level. But my point is that I also fully expect greater balance between classes and lower overall power levels as we move into double digit levels as well, allowing me to use monsters balanced closer to 3.0 CR expectations than 3.5 and with that reduced book keeeping.

Your sixth level character with the lesser necromantic powers is more of a necromancer than my sixth level core D&D necromancer which lacks virtually any necromantic powers. IOW, in a core D&D game, to get the same level of archetype, I need to get to 9th level. I can do it in your game at 6th. Granted the powers might not be exactly the same, but, they are close enough.

You've simply taken the more powerful powers, watered them down and then made them available earlier. Not a bad way of doing it. But, not terribly different than just letting the game rise in level faster.

No, it's very different. First, the setting doesn't have to change as often to remain challenging to the players. I don't have to do as you would expect of a Pazio style AP move the party continually to new zones of higher challenge nearly as often. That means I don't have to do nearly as much preperation work as I might, because the sand box remains playable and the exact order that adventures are undertaken isnt' as important.

Secondly, there is less time consumed with leveling mechanics. Players are more focused on the 'here and now' and not on what they are missing that they'll have later.

Thirdly, we avoid the problem of number inflation that besets higher level play, where you have increasing numbers of modifiers and interacting powers and buffs that slows down mechanical resolution.

Fourthly, we are reducing the amount of time in the campaign that the players have access to the really big game changers - raise dead, teleport, etc. This is important for game play, adventure design, and for world building. For game play this means that we spend less time at power levels where the PC's (particularly spellcasters) can just bend reality to their will. For adventure design, this means that there is a longer period of play where classic adventure styles are actually available, before the game changers completely over take the game and render some challenges pointless. For world building, this means that in order to have wide spread NPCs necromancers we don't also have to have widespread high level characters, and with that the game changing abilities that would otherwise completely alter the social and economic fabric of society to the point that it would likely be unrecognizable or inconceivable.

The end result is pretty much identical - you get to play your archetype after a reasonable amount of time. It takes your players the same amount of time to reach their archetype goals as my players.

There is nothing at all identical to a world where 6th level is a pretty big deal, and a world where 12th level is ubiquitous. The demographics of my world and the assumptions of play are completely different than the world RAW implies. There is a big difference between characters that can cast Minor Creation as one of their most potent abilities, and those that are well on their way to casting Wish.
 
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I also think that except for the blaster specialists most specialist wizards need work.

I'd tend to agree with that. Unfortunately, blaster type wizards - elementalists, for example - are easiest to support and its certainly easier to convert or idea of what it means to be a particular wizard specialist over to some variation of artillery/battlefield control/direct damage than to meaningfully differientiate different iconic sorts of magic. As with so many things, I felt 4e didn't even try to do anything that wasn't easy.

I do however think that only summoners and shapechangers present real table challenges. Ironically, summoners are also pretty easy to support, they just have potentially really negative impact on play. And shapechangers are if anything over supported by spell sets in 3.X that give them far too much flexibility with far too little drawbacks. Just toning them down a bit should be enough, particularly if you demand of the player he have all the bookkeeping precalculated before he uses the spell to minimize play disruption.

Right now I'm pretty happy with my support for everything but illusionists, necromancers, and psychics (psions, to anyone else). Illusionists lack the flexibility and creativity from 1e I'd like them to have, but how to do that in a balanced easy to adjudicate way is not trivial. Necromancers have always been problimatic, because among other things by the time you get Animate Dead its already irrelevant at that level of play. Fundamentally, the notion of 'necromancer' and 'command of the dead' is just really limiting. It's like being a plant mage or something; works really well when you are in a jungle, but what happens when you spend a lengthy portion of the campaign in a city or in a desert or in the arctic? Necromancer is really powerful when you are surrounded by dead things, but otherwise is just a blaster mage with slightly different flavor. Psychic powers, what D&D erroneously calls psionics, made sense in 1e as a separate magical system from spellcasting when psionics was not tied to either class or (largely) level, but I rather detest it as a separate magical system when it is explicitly tied to class and level. There is no reason for the same system to use both a spell slot system and a mana point system. I prefer the spell slot for a number of reasons, but if I was using mana points I'd use them for all classes. The trick is doing this while still capturing the flavor of being a TP, precog, or TK.

When I hear the term necromancer I think someone who has power over the dead. Now I don't expect low level necromancers to control huge hoards of undead. I think it would be cool to animate temporarily wasps, rats like you suggested and build from there. I would also give them control undead based on level. Clerics at first level can do it why not necromancers. It would start weaker and build in strength. Maybe give them knowledge skills of healing or anatomy because of their studies. I think necromancers could make the equivalent of a fantasy coroner.

Well, that's heartening. I think I may need to cast some thread necromancy since this topic I think has been discussed before and I'd like to review it now.

I have not looked at a lot of the splat books mainly because I have not had access to the bulk of my books in over a year. Though I did look at the dread necromancer class. It does some of this you can summon undead, you can bestow curses to heal yourself the goal is to eventually become a lich. It casts from a limited spell list like a sorcerer. But as it goes up in level its flavor becomes more and more evil. I don't believe all necromancers should have to be evil. I like the idea of a good necromancer who does not want to be a lich.

I generally agree. While it's difficult to be a necromancer and be good, it's not so impossible to concieve that I want to prevent it. I like the idea of a character that is staring into the abyss and trying hard not to fall into it with every spell he uses being a potential bit of corruption - something like a wizard that specializes in radiation magic trying to be a physician that cures cancer. I'll review my rules and make sure I've enough room to allow for the concept in an interesting way.
 

And what's the point of a game with twenty levels if you only ply thirteen of them?

It's a toolbox. Pick the options you want for your game, don't use the rest. Some people like play at all levels, some only like it at some levels. Tailor the game to fit.
 

I think there should be three XP tables, fast, medium, and slow.

I am going to get rid of any passive mechanics because I find them to be very lazy design, unless it's like the old elven ability.
 

You could just have a sentence in the DM's guide that says something like "Feel free to speed up or slow down the rate of power progression by increasing or decreasing the XP gained."

--

I agree with the statements about playing your concept ASAP (doesn't have to be an uber version of your concept!). If I want to play a psionic teleport assassin, I want SOME kind of dimension door power at level 1, even if it's extremely weak and short-ranged, rather than waiting several months.
 

I think there should be three XP tables, fast, medium, and slow.
You mean like this?

Varying the Rate of Advancment
The experience point numbers in the game are built so that characters complete eight to ten encounters for every level they gain. . .

If you double the XP rewards you give out, your characters will gain a level at least every other session . . .

If you want to limit your campaign to a single tier (ten levels), you could cut the XP rewards in half . . . (4e DMG, p 121)​
 

Necromancy School
The dread and feared necromancer commands undead
and uses the foul power of unlife against his enemies.
Power over Undead (Su): You receive Command Undead
or Turn Undead as a bonus feat. You can channel energy
a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence
modifier, but only to use the selected feat. You can take
other feats to add to this ability, such as Extra Channel
and Improved Channel, but not feats that alter this ability,
such as Elemental Channel and Alignment Channel. The
DC to save against these feats is equal to 10 + 1/2 your
wizard level + your Charisma modifier. At 20th level,
undead cannot add their channel resistance to the save
against this ability.
Grave Touch (Sp): As a standard action, you can make
a melee touch attack that causes a living creature to
become shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your
wizard level (minimum 1). If you touch a shaken creature
with this ability, it becomes frightened for 1 round if it
has fewer Hit Dice than your wizard level. You can use
this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your
Intelligence modifier.
Life Sight (Su): At 8th level, you gain blindsight to a range of
10 feet for a number of rounds per day equal to your wizard
level. This ability only allows you to detect living creatures
and undead creatures. This sight also tells you whether a
creature is living or undead. Constructs and other creatures
that are neither living nor undead cannot be seen with
this ability. The range of this ability increases by 10 feet at
12th level, and by an additional 10 feet for every four levels
beyond 12th. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.

This is the Pathfinder Specialist Necromancer Wizard. You get what you want right off the bat.
 


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