D&D 5E What's the rush? Has the "here and now" been replaced by the "next level" attitude?

After thinking about it for a while, I'd say that the biggest detractor to this issue is a lack of low-level diversity. From D&D to top MMOs and numerous other games, the tools a player gets at low level are all more or less the same. A ray-of-frost like spell, magic missile, heal minor wounds, etc. You'll find these in the low levels of gameplay across the board. There are variants, maybe instead of "heal minor wounds" it's "restore health" which does the same thing, in the same way, for the same class.

Until you get up past level 5 or so, it doesn't matter what you're playing, because they all operate like this. There are very few games that try to mix things up and even if they are low-damage/healing abilities, they're very generic. I think that doing so could go a long way to making the lower levels feel fresher and better. On some levels, it's all the same thing, "heal ability" "sword attack" "magical trick", but that doesn't stop us from coming up with creative ways to flavor it. I don't have any particularly stunning examples in mind at the moment, but I keep thinking back to Guild Wars 2 where your early abilities are not simply "hit it" or "shoot it" or "heal it".

We don't have to 4e way and create powers, but I think retooling your basic sword attack into something people are going to be excited to do is desperately needed. On this same note, providing choice in how you attack/blast/heal is very important. Things get dull when all you can do is the same attack every turn, for the same damage.
 

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Lots and lots of good stuff in this post, even though I would say that one of the best things about 4E in my view is that I need only limited house rules.

4E rather openly embraces that it's modeling a game and not reality. That makes it much easier to produce a tight rules set.

It is also intensely frustrating to those of us who wish our game to feel a little more like reality and who (among other things) would have taken 3E in that direction rather than the other. Sadly, Pathfinder didn't really clean up the rules enough either, so I'm stuck out on an island of my own making.

And here I think Celebrim is being unkind (by his own measure) to the 4E Skill Challenge rules. The problem with the scenario presented appears to me to be that the DM did not actually engage the rules.

LOL, yes. And also to 4E DMs. To pick on one such advocate, despite my frustration with what I feel is the inaccuracy of the 'hipster' language he uses to describe his game, I imagine Pemerton runs a good table. It's certainly proof that how you think about the game is more important than the rules.

By not telling the players that they are in a Skill Challenge the DM is witholding important and relevant facts about the rules as they apply to the situation, and thus about the game world. The DM is thus forcing the players to "read the GM" or "guess what the GM wants". This is exactly the sort of issue that I would expect to arise from pretending that the way the rules are being used is "obvious" or that the players "should know this as it's just common sense"...

Yes. I detest the 4E skill challenge framework on all sorts of levels. One of its problems is that it forms a distinct rules subsystem that forces the players to change how they perceive and interact with the world. I'm not sure you actually have to as a DM ding the seatbelt sign and say, "Attention passengers. We are now entering a complexity 2 skill challenge. Please return your seats to an upright position and prepare your minds for performing a challenge." But I'm sure it helps.
 

We don't have to 4e way and create powers, but I think retooling your basic sword attack into something people are going to be excited to do is desperately needed. On this same note, providing choice in how you attack/blast/heal is very important. Things get dull when all you can do is the same attack every turn, for the same damage.

This is a really delicate balance. I can imagine some ways get variety, but only at the cost of really slow play and fiddly complexity. It's not really suitable for a game with more than 1 story teller and 1 player IMO.

The easy things you'd try to do to get variety actually wouldn't get variety. The danger of introducing stunts and maneuvers is that you introduce something that is strictly better than attacking, so it just becomes the same thing you do every round for the same damage. The classic 3.X tripper is an example of this. It's not really an improvement in the sense of greater variety where the character does different things round after round depending on the situation.

Or you take the easy way out, the way 4e did and turn everyone into spell-casters. People don't do the same things round after round because the rules prevent them from doing so. On a narrative level it works, because whens the last time you read a book that explained why the combatants were using the combat maneuvers they chose to use. But in terms of being satisfying choices, I'm not sure it is much better. You here a lot of 4e players complaining about how redundant the progression of abilities are as well.

The standard combats I run turn out to be based largely around my expanded flanking rules, and so feature lots and lots of 5' steps where players jockey for position to maximize the parties flanking bonuses while preventing the enemy from doing the same. There is also some jockeying around switching between defensive and offensive fighting stances based on whether you think that you have the monsters' attention. Typically a melee player will take a very aggressive position where lots of enemies can reach him, then turtle up while players in less exposed positions unload with offensive stances. And the need to rescue endangered or exposed players can provoke bullrushes and that sort of thing. But that sort of interest only works in mass combats and really only when my players are trying to squeeze every drop out of the system. My 'duels', one on one fights between two combatants, are admittedly boring. There is some occasional flashes of interplay depending on the feats you have, but not enough to really make the narrative sparkle and really only rarely unless we are dealing with quite high level fighters who just have options and feats out the wazoo. Like 4e, the combat is mainly interesting in the interplay between allies.

I've considering increasing the number of things you can do in combat without feats in hopes to increase tactical options in a duel, but the problem is that the number of things you can do in combat now without feats is already so high that my players seldom remember all the options that they have and use them - offensive and defensive stances, parries, feints, distractions, trips, sunders, grabs, clinches, circles, pushes, tackles, etc. Add to that the options that come up from having combat related skills like Tactics, Leadership, and Tumble and I think my players are already overwhelmed with choices already.

Honestly, the only solution to this I know that is reliable is just better settings for your combats - regardless of the system you are using. Early on I was being really creative about the combat settings to ensure there were reasons to use alternative tactics and movement. But its really hard to maintain that without it seeming really forced.

Still, there are moments. We recently had a roof top chase where the assassin they were chasing left off a 30' high roof top at full speed in to the back of a manure cart. The player closest behind him blinked on his turn, and then said, "This is probably crazy, but I'm going to jump to, aiming to land right on him before he can leave the cart." (The player's character is a Sidhe rogue, so he has almost no hit points but massive skills.) He clears the distance with a jump then using his own body as a weapon, he succeeds in an improvised ranged touch attack, slamming (all 30 odds pounds of him) into the guy from 30' up. I roll impact damage for both, and the assassin gets really unlucky rolls and takes like 30 damage (the Sidhe only took like 9). So I'm like, "You fly out over the busy street and hurtle toward the ground like a missile, just seconds after the assassin. Just as he's standing up in the back of the wagon and reaching for the rail, you land with both feet on the top of his head. His unyielding neck snaps instantly, while you use the cushion of you legs, his body and ultimately 3' of manure to land gracefully but unpleasantly on the wagon. The driver, turns from cursing the champion*, and turns as pale as a ghost, says, "Blood of the gods above. I didn't see anything masters, just let me leave. I didn't see anything." High fives and shouting all around.

*The champion was mounted and trying to keep up with the chase in the streets, only he failed a ride check and crashed into the wagon the round before.

If you have suggestions, I'd really be interested in hearing them, but the thing is video games are strong at some things that PnP is really weak at. Bookkeeping is one of them.
 

Yes. I detest the 4E skill challenge framework on all sorts of levels. One of its problems is that it forms a distinct rules subsystem that forces the players to change how they perceive and interact with the world. I'm not sure you actually have to as a DM ding the seatbelt sign and say, "Attention passengers. We are now entering a complexity 2 skill challenge. Please return your seats to an upright position and prepare your minds for performing a challenge." But I'm sure it helps.
Well, firstly I don't find I need to make any specific announcement ;)

I just place down glass beads (green for successes, red for failures) on the table and the players know what's going on without anyone verbalising it.

I agree that Skill Challenges are far from perfect as a system for non-combat challenges. They lack inherent interesting decisions for the players (the GM has to add those in via the way the challenge is constructed out of tasks and sub-objectives) and they don't allow easily for NPC/world "active opposition" to play a part (the GM can add that as a way to get the required number of rolls, as I think [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] does, but it's still rather "static" as opposed to "dynamic"). I wish WotC had put some serious design resources into making a proper replacement (instead of fiddling at the edges). But they didn't, and now it seems they never will.

I still consider, however, that Skill Challenges are a country mile better than what has laughably passed for a "system" for such situations in previous versions of D&D. Flawed they may be, but at least they acknowledge the need for mechanisms to "model the world, not reality" for out of combat challenges. At least they give an unequivocal model that players can comprehend of how non-combat challenges will be resolved.
 

I still consider, however, that Skill Challenges are a country mile better than what has laughably passed for a "system" for such situations in previous versions of D&D. Flawed they may be, but at least they acknowledge the need for mechanisms to "model the world, not reality" for out of combat challenges. At least they give an unequivocal model that players can comprehend of how non-combat challenges will be resolved.

So you consider repetitively rolling dice to gather enough points to proceed without any plan or intend to actually work towards the goal (we win when we roll enough successes, so everyone roll the highest skill you can get away with over and over, it doesn't matter what) to be better than figuring out the best way to reach the objective with the parties skillset and minimal risk of failure and then execute said plan, adapting to failures on the fly?
 

So you consider repetitively rolling dice to gather enough points to proceed without any plan or intend to actually work towards the goal (we win when we roll enough successes, so everyone roll the highest skill you can get away with over and over, it doesn't matter what) to be better than figuring out the best way to reach the objective with the parties skillset and minimal risk of failure and then execute said plan, adapting to failures on the fly?
The latter is how a well-designed skill challenge works.

The former is an edition warrior's parody of a skill challenge.
 

The latter is how a well-designed skill challenge works.

The former is an edition warrior's parody of a skill challenge.

Actually the former is how Skill Challenges are designed to work. The latter is how people wish Skill Challenges would play out when you ignore half the rules, add some houserules and stir and also the way skills worked in earlier editions.
 

Actually the former is how Skill Challenges are designed to work. The latter is how people wish Skill Challenges would play out when you ignore half the rules, add some houserules and stir and also the way skills worked in earlier editions.
Oh snap?

Check out the Rules Compendium write-up, advice in the DMG2 and dragon articles, etc. It took a while - the system in the DMG1 was wretched - but seriously, you're about 5 years out of date here. Which doesn't surprise me, mind you.
 

Oh snap?

Check out the Rules Compendium write-up, advice in the DMG2 and dragon articles, etc. It took a while - the system in the DMG1 was wretched - but seriously, you're about 5 years out of date here. Which doesn't surprise me, mind you.

So 5 years and lots of spend $ so that skill challenges come close (relatively) to what previous editions offered from day 1? And the core concept of skill challenges is still broken as it shifts the goal from overcoming the situation to getting an arbitrary number of successes to finish the skill challenge.
 

Oh snap?

Check out the Rules Compendium write-up, advice in the DMG2 and dragon articles, etc. It took a while - the system in the DMG1 was wretched - but seriously, you're about 5 years out of date here. Which doesn't surprise me, mind you.

Although it is good to hear of some improvement in later supplements, based on the skill challenge presented in these forums the system still leaves an awful lot to be desired in probability transparency, on-the-fly assignment of consequence, and dealing with situations where the PCs are not the only active participants.
 

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