D&D 5E Legends & Lore 28.04: Battlesystem! (mass battles rules)

[howandwhy99]

3e had a heck of a time trying to create a mass combat rule set that supported all the potential options that the individual character build rules included. All the feats, class abilities, spells, types of arms and armor, plus special maneuvers designed mostly for 1:1 duals, and so on.

This new system sounds like a very, very simplified scaling up of the D&D Next combat system requiring only a few specifics game options to run. For instance, battlemat positioning and square sizing, but not flanks, facing, composition, or any of the other features you might find in a full on wargame.

I think that's a good idea because I believe 5e is still looking to support a mass of character building options before a mass combat system. And if it tried to do both, it would quickly run into problems like 3e.

There are some questions of course, but we only got a taste so far:
[sblock]1. Shared actions vs. Individual actions. What happens when units are larger than 20 and each member gets an attack roll, a Saving Throw roll, or other kind of roll? Can solos can only interact with 20-member units no matter the scale?

2. Shared statistics vs. Individual statistics. Strength requirements and rolls by groups can get funky. A million ants still can't left a Chevy pick up, but their combined strength would generally allow it.

3. Solo Configuration and Group Massing (swarms). How units configure themselves usually alters how they can attack or defend, usually on the flanks. Attacking a mass of creatures by a solo is a single attack. Damage and effects usually affect the whole group - unless it divides or is routed. Then individual results are determined as needed. Just like the design of a creature body in an RPG, how an individual unit is configured affects attack and defense. We see Regiments and Skirmishers, but not much else as of yet.

4. Scaling of spell effects and spell areas. Magical area effects by spellcasters were originally designed for mass combat in Chainmail, but not everything is designed for affect multiple creatures. That can lead to weird results when cast on units.

5. Individual Maneuvers/Powers vs. Unit Maneuvers/Powers. How are feats, spells, 5e powers for the unit treated? Must every member have the ability? What if only a few do? Also, how are group/unit actions included? Swarm around, shield wall, Testudo blocking, shield & spear flanks, etc.[/sblock]

 

[Sage Genesis]

Yes, this is how (I think) it works. It represents the idea that when you are engaged inside a unit in a large battle, you can't focus on single targets and cast a spell every 6 seconds. Both the chaos around you and/or the fact that you need to follow the rest of your unit (or lead it, which is probably what PC will do), significantly restrict your freedom.

No, you misunderstood the question.

It's not about whether the wizard is inside a stand, it's whether the target is inside a stand.

Let's say there's an evil general (a solo) who stands in between his two hill giant bodyguards (a stand). If the wizard (a solo unconnected to a stand) casts an area of effect spell, he can do one per Battle-round and catch all three within the area. Yes? That's probably how it works?

But then if the evil general is standing 20 feet behind the two hill giants, the Wizard can suddenly, in the same amount of time, cast ten such spells within the same time span and almost certainly still catch all three within the area.

Again, the caster in this example is not inside a stand. Which is not the issue. It's about the target. The caster can't possibly be distracted by having to lead his followers, he can just suddenly increase his damage on the enemy tenfold just because the general walked back a couple of steps.

(All of the above given my current understanding of the Battlesystem. Given the limitations of an article without real crunch this may of course be completely off center.)

I agree with you that this system is simple. And also that simplicity might have a higher priority than other considerations. But there is such a thing as overdoing it. Sometimes you don't need something that's simple, but something that's functional. Depending on the devil in the details, this system doesn't look functional enough (for me anyway).

 

[Sage Genesis]

1. Shared actions vs. Individual actions. What happens when units are larger than 20 and each member gets an attack roll, a Saving Throw roll, or other kind of roll? Can solos can only interact with 20-member units no matter the scale?

2. Shared statistics vs. Individual statistics. Strength requirements and rolls by groups can get funky. A million ants still can't left a Chevy pick up, but their combined strength would generally allow it.

3. Solo Configuration and Group Massing (swarms). How units configure themselves usually alters how they can attack or defend, usually on the flanks. Attacking a mass of creatures by a solo is a single attack. Damage and effects usually affect the whole group - unless it divides or is routed. Then individual results are determined as needed. Just like the design of a creature body in an RPG, how an individual unit is configured affects attack and defense. We see Regiments and Skirmishers, but not much else as of yet.

4. Scaling of spell effects and spell areas. Magical area effects by spellcasters were originally designed for mass combat in Chainmail, but not everything is designed for affect multiple creatures. That can lead to weird results when cast on units.

5. Individual Maneuvers/Powers vs. Unit Maneuvers/Powers. How are feats, spells, 5e powers for the unit treated? Must every member have the ability? What if only a few do? Also, how are group/unit actions included? Swarm around, shield wall, Testudo blocking, shield & spear flanks, etc.

I just want to point out that stands and units are not the same thing. I suspect that you're mixing up the terminology at the moment.

A stand consists of a group of individuals. It's to scale up a mob of goblins into "one" goblin.

A unit consists of multiple stands and is used for effects like morale. Like a party is made up out of PCs, a unit is made up out of stands.

 

[Gundark]

I am getting the Impression that this is more of a quick a dirty system than a catch all type of thing.
I also wonder how this system handles things Iike sieges

 

[Blackwarder]

I am getting the Impression that this is more of a quick a dirty system than a catch all type of thing.
I also wonder how this system handles things Iike sieges

It doesn't. It a precursor for a more comprehensive system down the road, you can do it justice with only 4 pages in the DMG.

Warder

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I'm curious how things like vehicles and siege weapons would work in things like this. Of course I know that vehicles are probably another whole section of the rules...

There's definitely a question of how area spells do affect stands. If it's damage as normal with no bonus amount like 3e's swarm rules. I guess it's assumed that while a caster may use fireball once in those 10 personal combat rounds (potentially targeting 4 stands), they're using combat cantrips and seeking cover in the other 9 rounds.

One thing I'm picturing is my idea mass combat in a Steampunk campaign with units of riflemen, grenadiers, elven sharpshooters, wolf dragoons and mechanized steam knights, supported by artillery (both cannons and gatling guns), airships, wyvern cavalry, griffin-mounted bombers, ogres with handcannons and gelatinous assault cubes vs. an Illithid-commanded army of foulspawn hordes, grimlock shocktroops, beholders and other aberrant terrors.

 

[Stormonu]

also, the choice of a Wisdom/Will save leaves me a little uncomfortable. It seems more like thcharisma of the 'leader' should drive the morale of the group, or at least somehow work into controlling the army (perhaps a command radius or troop limit, like the old # of henchmen value for charisma from 1E)?

 

[fjw70]

also, the choice of a Wisdom/Will save leaves me a little uncomfortable. It seems more like thcharisma of the 'leader' should drive the morale of the group, or at least somehow work into controlling the army (perhaps a command radius or troop limit, like the old # of henchmen value for charisma from 1E)?

Maybe troops add their commander's CHA + Prof bonus to their WIS save (if in the command radius).

 

[the Jester]

Does this start to meet the needs of the people who REALLY wanted a mass combat system?

Speaking for myself, yes.

I mean, there's a lot more I'd like rules for in the realm of army management, recruitment, logistics, etc. But I figure if the game doesn't come with it, I can manage to whip something up. Having a basic system is excellent.

I hope they decided on a very simple rule to handle AoE spells in this case, be it a max number or targets affected or something similar. A rationale like "50 orcs packed together provide each other cover against a Fireball" is good enough for me at least for Dex-ST spells. A bit more difficult to explain why a poisonous cloud would not affect all of them.

I think an easy way to deal with it is to give stands vulnerability to area attacks and resistance to single-target attacks from solo creatures.

No, you misunderstood the question.

It's not about whether the wizard is inside a stand, it's whether the target is inside a stand.

Let's say there's an evil general (a solo) who stands in between his two hill giant bodyguards (a stand). If the wizard (a solo unconnected to a stand) casts an area of effect spell, he can do one per Battle-round and catch all three within the area. Yes? That's probably how it works?

But then if the evil general is standing 20 feet behind the two hill giants, the Wizard can suddenly, in the same amount of time, cast ten such spells within the same time span and almost certainly still catch all three within the area.

Here's an elegant, easy solution for this corner case: Play those two hill giants as solos for the duration of the battle with the pcs.

 

[Sage Genesis]

Here's an elegant, easy solution for this corner case: Play those two hill giants as solos for the duration of the battle with the pcs.

That doesn't solve things, it makes them worse.

The issue is that stands can be caught within the AoE of attacks launched at un-connected solos. There's all sorts of clouds, lines, and cones that could clip a stand. The solution to make more solos is just going to magnify this problem, as there are now more un-connected solos around to cause this effect. By now you're basically unraveling all stands and are just playing with the normal, basic combat rules.


(Edit: Also, I really don't think this situation qualifies for a "corner case." We're talking about any situation in which there's un-connected solos and AoE effects around, not just two hill giants. That's just an example, let's not get bogged down in its minutiae. And since this is D&D there's a pretty good chance of AoE effects going around. And given that most stands are easier to kill than any solo of the name... we're really talking about any fight with solos in it.)