D&D 5E Starter Set Excerpt 5

[TerraDave]

Drow are one dead deity away from dissolving into utter chaos. Not sure that deserves a 10 on the civilized scale. I agree with TwoSix about the Mind Flayers.

Decadence. The key is decadence.

After a civilization passes its brawny John Wayne, Roman Republic, King David, Fields of Eton phase, it may continue to advance, but that comfort, sophistication, politicization, stratification, permissiveness...is really just its undoing.

Or at least thats a common fantasy/early modern caricature.

 

[Lidgar]

I like the goblins, but not the requisite too-big-funny-shaped-sword.

That is what my eye was drawn to as well. Along with proto-punk spiky gauntlets.

My goblins are lucky to have sharp sticks with hide. Faces are good though.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Decadence. The key is decadence.

After a civilization passes its brawny John Wayne, Roman Republic, King David, Fields of Eton phase, it may continue to advance, but that comfort, sophistication, politicization, stratification, permissiveness...is really just its undoing.

Or at least thats a common fantasy/early modern caricature.

Caricature indeed, as history and archaeology pretty much show that's historicist/determinist nonsense, often with a heaping side-dish of misogyny and homophobia (also often bonus racism!). I won't go into the associated politics, as it's ENWorld, but really, the main reasons empires/civilizations collapse IRL are external factors like climate change (not the modern one - I'm talking Incas etc.) or population movements/invasions, or civil wars that get out of control.

 

[Tonguez]

This is a great pic for hobgoblins but not my idea of goblin

To me goblins are vermin. Scrawny, malicious scavengers and thieves who rely on sneaking and trickery to get what they want. They are clever but know they are weak and easily bullied by bigger monsters (like Hobgoblins) and thus can be sycophantic and untrustworthy in their behaviour.

To me goblins should be sneaking in with poison and arrows ready to assasinate and back stab but this picture with its oversized swords and muscular builds shows a group relying on strength to enter a confrontation. Thats Hobgoblins not the goblins that terrify children in the night....

 

[Agamon]

By that logic, Mind Flayers absolutely cannot be civilized, or any Evil group, so yeah, nope, that doesn't work (it's also untrue in FR). The idea that Drow aren't complex is also pretty laughable.

I meant not as complex as the civilization Lolth has set up for them. Mind flayers are as civilized as they are because they choose to be. If Lolth would let them, drow would murder each other in the streets until they were on top (and were subsequently murdered). They already do this in a much more structured way, because that's what Lolth demands. Everything they do is because it's what Lolth demands or would please her.

I would accept the argument that drow might be the way they are because of the way Lolth demands they are raised as children, and without her influence maybe they would be more cooperative. Hard to say.

Sorry for the drow nerdism, my current campaign they are the big bad, so I've done a bunch of research.

Edit: Come to think of it, maybe mind flayers are almost as bad with their devotion to the hive brain. But it's more fundamental to their physiology. Lolth is just a big bully.

 

[TwoSix]

Decadence. The key is decadence.

After a civilization passes its brawny John Wayne, Roman Republic, King David, Fields of Eton phase, it may continue to advance, but that comfort, sophistication, politicization, stratification, permissiveness...is really just its undoing.

Or at least thats a common fantasy/early modern caricature.

I don't even think it's necessarily a fantasy caricature. Look at the Capitol District from the Hunger Games. Or the remnants of humanity in Wall-E.

To my mind, the fact that a society has diminished doesn't mean it would be lower on the "civilization" scale, rather, that having "too much" civilization leads to decadence and enervation of a society.

But, I also don't think that the Dragon excerpt was using my definition of civilization, or RE's. I think they were using a definition much more tightly knitted to the classic feel of a "lawful" alignment. And goblins (especially hobgoblins) have always been on the lawful side of the equation, in my experience. Maglubiyet's domain is on Acheron, after all.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I meant not as complex as the civilization Lolth has set up for them. Mind flayers are as civilized as they are because they choose to be. If Lolth would let them, drow would murder each other in the streets until they were on top (and were subsequently murdered). They already do this in a much more structured way, because that's what Lolth demands. Everything they do is because it's what Lolth demands or would please her.

I would accept the argument that drow might be the way they are because of the way Lolth demands they are raised as children, and without her influence maybe they would be more cooperative. Hard to say.

Sorry for the drow nerdism, my current campaign they are the big bad, so I've done a bunch of research.

I am, sadly for me, also an FR Drow expert (as of 2E, for the same reasons), and I don't agree at all with your presentation of them. Not sure what world your Drow are from, but it isn't the FR. Drow absolutely would not do that, were Lloth not there. She shaped their society, not vice-versa. The bolded bit shows you agree. Without her, they would not have this psycho murderous society. They might be very organised (the "next" Drow god in line is LE, IIRC), or even Good (c.f. Eilistraeeeeeeeee however much one might hate her).

Sojourn (RA Salvatore's least-bad book, I'd argue) makes it utterly explicit that it is because of how they are raised, and that is "true" in FR lore.

But Greyhawk Drow? Maybe they work your way. I honestly don't know jack about them.

 

[Agamon]

I am, sadly for me, also an FR Drow expert (as of 2E, for the same reasons), and I don't agree at all with your presentation of them. Not sure what world your Drow are from, but it isn't the FR. Drow absolutely would not do that, were Lloth not there. She shaped their society, not vice-versa. The bolded bit shows you agree. Without her, they would not have this psycho murderous society. They might be very organised (the "next" Drow god in line is LE, IIRC), or even Good (c.f. Eilistraeeeeeeeee however much one might hate her).

Sojourn (RA Salvatore's least-bad book, I'd argue) makes it utterly explicit that it is because of how they are raised, and that is "true" in FR lore.

What I get from it is that Drizzt and Zaknefein were black sheep, and generally, drow evil nature is nurtured by Lolth. One could certainly argue the other way, for sure.

I'm okay with Drizzt being the lone misunderstood drow. I hate the idea that all of them are.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I like these new goblins. And I love Pathfinder goblins. I think each fits their respective game. In D&D 5E, the PCs will be potentially dealing with goblins for a breadth of their career. So they need to be a more serious foe with a larger place in the world. In Pathfinder, goblins aren't a threat after a few levels, so they may as well be relegated to a humorous element.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It's interesting to me that most of the negative reactions here are falling into the camp of "It's a fine bit of art, but these don't match my vision of what GOBLINS should be like!"

Which is kind of fair because goblins have been like six different kinds of critters over the life of D&D. And one of the risks of going with one particular visual style. I dunno, maybe Greyhawk goblins will be a little more Trampier/Tolkein in style?

These goblins fit well with my concept of goblins, so I'm reasonably happy, but if you're lookin' for a different sort of critter, it makes sense that these wouldn't necessarily do it for you.