D&D 5E 5th Edition: How to Make My DM Cry

[Greg K]

As a DM that wouldn't make me cry. It would make me say, "This isn't the group for you. Good luck elsewhere."

You mean there would be no tears of joy as the player left?

 

[Sacrosanct]

But the rules!

I mean, this game is supposed to be all about the players having fun, right? A creative DM would be able to come up with appropriate challenges for any character concept!

You're not an uncreative DM, are you?

I'm assuming this is sarcasm. At least I hope so.

I guess the first way to respond to this is that in a role-playing game, creativity isn't restricted to how many +'s you can get by exploiting loopholes. Most creativity happens in the game, during game play, and not before the game actually starts on some sort of optimization spreadsheet.

At least in my games it does, and funny enough, all of the players I game with over the past 30+ years were able to have fun without needing to exploit loopholes.

 

[Branduil]

I hope it's clear that I'm being facetious in this thread. It's easy to model actual viewpoints a little too accurately in this format, I understand. There really ARE people who at least seem to think the way I am presenting here, unfortunately.

But seriously, I wonder what the optimization crowd will do with 5E. I remember back when Pathfinder came out there was an air of relief due to the game being "so much better balanced", in part because some of the more commonly known optimization tricks were addressed in the core rules and some of the earlier supplements.

And then came the APG.

At this point I'm looking at 5E and thinking a lot of the same things -- it might be a nice refuge from what PF has become, as that game is starting to groan under the weight of its own cheese and is poised to receive a hunkin' heapin' helpin' more with the new class book just around the corner (at least that's my expectation).

I think a big difference is that Pathfinder was specifically designed to be backwards-compatible with 3.x material, and 3.x is broken at a structural level. Fixing the system would require extensive rewrites of nearly everything- which is kind of what 5e is, in a way.

If 5e is broken, I imagine it will be broken by something that overwrites Bounded Accuracy in some way. Or something that allows casters to overcome the concentration limit.

Feats being optional helps a lot since you can just turn them off if they break the game.

 

[Henry]

For werebat - right now the biggest "limburger" is the "mountain dwarf wizard" concept, which is a wizard strong enough to use a big-ass weapon in combat, and wear medium armor for good defense, but also be able to fall back to spells when needed and cast unhampered by armor.

Truthfully, as long as Wizards of the Coast is able to stick to their goals of "bounded accuracy", i honestly don't think that there's too much optimization that can go on in the 3.x and 4.x sense of the term.

 

[gyor]

I've figure out some cool combos, but nothing broken in an optimization sense.

I'd have to see the stats first, but a level 3 Sorceror/level 17 sorceror can summon a Solar and then extend her stay by spending a sorcery point on extend spell metamagic.

A level 20 Half-Orc Cavalier Paladin can end up with a +5 strenth mod and +5 Charisma mod, which means when you have sacred weapon on, he adds both prof bonus of 6 + 5 Strenth Mod + 5 Charisma Mod + 4 divine power spell to hit chance, plus +5 to every saving throw, 5 each of Cleansing Touch/Divine Sense, then reroll 1's and 2's on damage rolls and add an extra die to critcs, and can come back from a killing blow (Half Orc ability once per day). Oh and unlike most Paladin who will likely suck with ranged weapons, being the one class that doesn't need dex as much as the others, he can use Sacred Weapon on say a Longbow and add his charisma mod to the attack, making him a descent archer for a time.

A level 20 Fey Knight can slaughter wizards with easy, between Aura of Protection and Aura of Warding, alone, is powerful, but with Elder Champion up your a better spell caster, being able cast all Paladin spells swiftly and granting disadvatage against there saving throws against your spells and channel divinity.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Is that invincible fighter or paladin exploit still available?

Kender will be in the DMG for optimizing fun!

*Twitch* This is bad for the game, but I don't think it has anything to do with game balance. (At least now they can still sneak attack.) *Twitch*

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Truthfully, as long as Wizards of the Coast is able to stick to their goals of "bounded accuracy", i honestly don't think that there's too much optimization that can go on in the 3.x and 4.x sense of the term.

Well, hopefully. It's hard to predict what future splats will bring; 3.X worked pretty well at the core level but later mechanics broke it.

I'm also a bit vague on bonus stacking rules, at the moment, given the multiple rules iterations in the playtest. Reducing the amount of allowable stacking will go a long way to prevent abuse.

 

[Werebat]

It's hard to predict what future splats will bring; 3.X worked pretty well at the core level but later mechanics broke it.

And core Pathfinder worked well too, for the most part. Most of the munchkin stuff started with APG (although, yes, "Quoth the Munchkin, 'Wizard's Core!'").

I think it's just the nature of game systems. I'm very confident that 5th Edition will degenerate to munchkin Heaven before half a decade is out -- power creep and all. And you can't really blame WotC; they must "Publish or Perish", and they have to give the people what they want, and what the people want is power creep.

I'd like to get in on the ground floor of 5th Edition, though.

 

[grimslade]

Well, hopefully. It's hard to predict what future splats will bring; 3.X worked pretty well at the core level but later mechanics broke it.

3.x birthed CoDzilla with just the core. Just saying. I think 5e seems to reign that in with the 1 buff at a time.

 

[was]

Fastest way to make your DM cry is to stop bathing and then let the fumes get him.