D&D 5E Supplemental books: Why the compulsion to buy and use, but complain about it?

[KarinsDad]

just take the first part. Why would someone drag there feet when making a character... maybe they can't find something they want to play... it isn't that hard to look into that.

Maybe not. But for a new DM, it might not be obvious to look for a problem. Sorry, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the brand new DM, not the player. You seem to give the benefit of the doubt to the player. Also, WE said that the player was a pain in the butt after the game started. I'm sorry, but that is just bad behavior period. People who come to the game and have behavioral issues do not get a lot of sympathy from me.

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually, I did misread what you wrote. Ran over it too quickly and read it as the player not needing to know. Sorry.

It's all good.

 

[TwoSix]

all 4 games are ones I pitched and either never got played at all, or made it less then 7 game sessions....

My feeling is always that if I'm going to pitch crazy ideas to the players, I should reciprocate by being enthusiastic when they pitch an idea, even it isn't something I find hugely interesting. It's only fair.

 

[Sadras]

no [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] has argued that you need to compromise... just like I have.
(snip)
I don't chastise DMs for having limits, I worry when DMs hit hard limits at char gen with no ability to forsee anyone ever wanting to play other things...

Basically you and Hussar have no hard limits. Then I have to ask what exactly is the point of limits then in your campaigns? For the softer less pushy players that respect/trust the DM who wont pick at them?
No hard limits = completely flexible.

and again, there are circumstances that fly, and ones it doesnt'... again running a PF AP is the big glareing issue here... the DM has to learn the basic rules (was already a player so basics are a check)... how to set up a campaign (hey look he choose a premade pre packackaged one)... how to handle players (wow that is a hard skill... up there with herding cats)... and learning the rules of each PC. D&D (and pathfinder) are really packages of rules. Learning all of one package over another is not a big deal. to be honest learning gunslinger is way easier then learning wizard...
that is where we disagree... he may have been but we don't know...

I disagree with your assessments of how easy it is for a newbie DM of a particular mindset, which we are unawares, of setting up a campaign (published or otherwise) and handling players and rulings and the general unfolding of the story. People generally learn how to toast, fry an egg and boil pasta first - before attempting something a little more adventurous, and not because they don't know ingredients, or the ability to read a recipe or use an oven, but because they feel intimidated by the entire experience until they become comfortable.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

Maybe not. But for a new DM, it might not be obvious to look for a problem. Sorry, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the brand new DM, not the player. You seem to give the benefit of the doubt to the player. Also, WE said that the player was a pain in the butt after the game started. I'm sorry, but that is just bad behavior period. People who come to the game and have behavioral issues do not get a lot of sympathy from me.

the problem is WHY was he being a pain in the butt... you say

I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the brand new DM, not the player.

I don't see the difference between player and DM in this regard... I give both PEOPLE the benefit of the doubt.

WE said that the player was a pain in the butt after the game started. I'm sorry, but that is just bad behavior period.

gee, almost like he was bringing down the game he wasn't having fun at...

or wait, maybe your right. Maybe he loved playing his Cleric and thought the game was a ton of fun, but choose to show that by sabotaging the game because that is what he does, sabotage things he likes...

or wait maybe the player in question has no ability to fit in at the table and always makes waves no matter what..

do you think the player went out of his way to be a pain in the butt for a reason? I am all ears on your theory?

 

[KarinsDad]

the problem is WHY was he being a pain in the butt... you say
I don't see the difference between player and DM in this regard... I give both PEOPLE the benefit of the doubt.

gee, almost like he was bringing down the game he wasn't having fun at...

or wait, maybe your right. Maybe he loved playing his Cleric and thought the game was a ton of fun, but choose to show that by sabotaging the game because that is what he does, sabotage things he likes...

or wait maybe the player in question has no ability to fit in at the table and always makes waves no matter what..

do you think the player went out of his way to be a pain in the butt for a reason? I am all ears on your theory?

Yes, both people are people. But I give the benefit of doubt to the person who was not being disruptive. There are two sides to every story, but I'm trusting that WE is not misleading us here.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

Basically you and Hussar have no hard limits. Then I have to ask what exactly is the point of limits then in your campaigns? For the softer less pushy players that respect/trust the DM who wont pick at them?
No hard limits = completely flexible.

I do have limits, but I am always willing to discuss them and try to understand what the other person is looking for...

I disagree with your assessments of how easy it is for a newbie DM of a particular mindset, which we are unawares, of setting up a campaign (published or otherwise) and handling players and rulings and the general unfolding of the story

all of that has 0 difference if I play a Ranger, or a Gunslinger...

People generally learn how to toast, fry an egg and boil pasta first - before attempting something a little more adventurous, and not because they don't know ingredients, or the ability to read a recipe or use an oven, but because they feel intimidated by the entire experience until they become comfortable.

yes but then they say "Hey pick easy things" not "Hey here is a book with some of the most complex things and some of the easiest, choose from here instead of choosing something from that book that is easier"

if book A has toast, fryed egg, and boiled pasta next to steak and casserole with a gourmet meal at the end and I look over it and say "You know I really want a grilled cheese, it is no harder then frying an egg and much easier then a good steak or casserole,or that last thing" and your answer is "That is making it too hard on me" I have to wonder why...

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

Yes, both people are people. But I give the benefit of doubt to the person who was not being disruptive. There are two sides to every story, but I'm trusting that WE is not misleading us here.

he is no more misleading then I am or you are... he is still just giving us one point of view, one that doesn't want to consider the other point of view at all...

again WHY WOULD SOMEONE BE A PAIN IN THE BUTT AT A GAME THEY WERE HAVING FUN AT?????

 

[Sadras]

all of that has 0 difference if I play a Ranger, or a Gunslinger...

And where do guns come from? and the ammo? are there better guns? why is there only one gunslinger in this campaign setting?....It is not just about allowing one class, the DM now has to now modify campaign setting to suit the need of the gunslinger.

yes but then they say "Hey pick easy things" not "Hey here is a book with some of the most complex things and some of the easiest, choose from here instead of choosing something from that book that is easier"

if book A has toast, fryed egg, and boiled pasta next to steak and casserole with a gourmet meal at the end and I look over it and say "You know I really want a grilled cheese, it is no harder then frying an egg and much easier then a good steak or casserole,or that last thing" and your answer is "That is making it too hard on me" I have to wonder why...

We will probably agree to disagree. I just want to mention to you something interesting that recently happened with my group. I asked them all to write a short background for their 5e characters and distribute it amongst each other. We waited close to a month for one player to write his, and I was adamant I was not going to set a play date until they had all done it, so he was getting pressure from the others to hurry up.
When he does distribute his background, one of the other players recognises his write-up as a passage from the 2e Elves Handbook. It came out this player has a certain phobia/mental block about writing essays/compositions.
Just a little about him, he is well versed in English, has read quite a bit, brilliant roleplayer and in his early 40's. It makes no sense to me and at least one of the other players why he has such a mental handicap but he does.
I see the allowance of a gunslinger class as a much bigger leap for a newbie DM than this background I requested of him.
As said, we should probably agree to disagree on this one.

he is no more misleading then I am or you are...

I seem to think @Elf Witch is female. I remember there were two identified female posters in that extended boob thread, one was you and the other I'm thinking was Elf Witch, unless my memory is completely failing me, which happens a lot.

 

[KarinsDad]

he is no more misleading then I am or you are... he is still just giving us one point of view, one that doesn't want to consider the other point of view at all...

again WHY WOULD SOMEONE BE A PAIN IN THE BUTT AT A GAME THEY WERE HAVING FUN AT?????

Who said that person was having fun? Or not having fun?

But if one is not having fun, does it justify bad behavior? You seem to imply that it's ok if the reason for it is good enough. Err, no.

This is kind of like "the criminal is the victim" mentality. No, the criminal is the criminal. I'm not particularly interested in why he was a pain in the butt, I'm siding with those who say that the bad behavior is not justified.

Brand new DM vs. unhappy gamer. I support the one without the bad behavior. DM, player, it doesn't matter. Both are people. If the DM was a pain in the butt to the point that it torpedoed the game, I would be saying that his behavior was not justified.