D&D 5E What are the Roles now?

[Imaro]

I'd also point out that there are at least three reasons why Imaro's example of a fighter doing AoE attacks doesn't really work.

I disagree... my example of the fighter doing AoE attacks works fine, it's not breaking any rules and is possible. That said I'll address your specific points...

1. In order for the fighter to attack 4 different targets they'd either have to all be within 5 feet of the fighter or he is one shotting each one. Otherwise, he's taking an opportunity attack from each opponent other than the last, as he bounces around the battlefield. AoE attacks typically don't open you up to multiple opportunity attacks unless the caster is really desperate.

Well the Fighter has the highest AC and highest hit points plus Second Wind to mitigate the attacks and damage he might suffer... but I would assume he would use a reach weapon if he's going for AoE... so now there is no need for the fighter to move into the threat range of most creatures, but instead move along the outskirts attacking but not taking attacks... Let's also take Polearm master which gives us another attack for d4 every time we take the attack action and attack with our glaive but also allows us to attack any creature who enters our reach... Oh and if we want a wider area of effect take the Mobile feat I commented earlier tactics and strategy were necessary to pull this off but I didn't think I'd have to construct a step by step...

2. If the fighter is not one shotting each opponent, he can choose to double up attacks and keep attacking the same target in order to put it down. AoE effects cannot do this. You can't choose to fireball three ogres and then triple the damage to one ogre. It doesn't work that way. IOW, not an AoE attack.

Wait what... your complaint is that in 5e he's versatile enough that mid-attack the fighter can switch from doing an AoE attack to focused damage if he chooses... He's supposed to be a master of combat why is that a bad thing again? I don't even know what to say here... that's been our point all along, the versatility and flexibility inherent in 5e... I don't have power that forces me to act in an exact way with an exact outcome... instead it's based on how I choose to use it in play and in the moment...

3. The fighter can do this once per short rest. Meaning, at best, he can do this once per encounter, although, in play it's likely once per two or three encounters. I'd say that's a pretty poor controller that can only make one single AoE attack every two or three encounters. Heck, one that could only do it once every two or three ROUNDS isn't a very good controller.

I'm not going to spend the time constructing another build to prove this wrong but I'll give you a hint you start with the Battlemaster and pick the right weapons and feats... enough said.

So, no, fighters aren't controllers in 5e. They can't do it.

No they aren't but not because they can't do AoE attacks... it's because they are versatile enough to move beyond a "controller" role.

 

[Imaro]

No, not edition warring. Just looking for understanding and I think I see now. The reason there's no roles in 5e for some people is the same as the idea that there are no AEDU structure in 5e - it's not specifically called out as such, and thus it doesn't exist. It's all about presentation. I look at Battlemasters and see AEDU structure. It's presented differently, but, it's pretty much exactly the same.

Then answer my question ... which type are their superiority dice? They don't operate mechanically on any of those paradigms... But yeah keep telling yourself it's presentation..

EDIT: Even Action Surge replenishes on a long or short rest... so is it daily? No... because it will replenish on a short rest... is it an encounter? No... because it can recharge on a long rest... is it at-will? Nope... so you tell me how again is this AEDU?

 

[Eric V]

No, not edition warring. Just looking for understanding and I think I see now. The reason there's no roles in 5e for some people is the same as the idea that there are no AEDU structure in 5e - it's not specifically called out as such, and thus it doesn't exist. It's all about presentation. I look at Battlemasters and see AEDU structure. It's presented differently, but, it's pretty much exactly the same.

Seems that way, no? After all, we have powers that recharge after a long rest, a short rest, and some can be used at will (basic attacks).

Some people really don't want anything overtly from 4e in their game, including nomenclature, so the words used to describe these same otherwise same effects were changed. Helpfully, it means that those desperate not to see 4e in their 5e game don't have to, and those who played and enjoyed 4e can see some of its better ideas incorporated into the current system.

Everybody wins...you'd think.

 

[SirAntoine]

The character classes themselves are all the roles you will ever need. Everything else is a discussion of tactics and strategy, but it's bad form to tell all players of the same class "your role is something else". Let the game be played.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Then answer my question ... which type are their superiority dice? They don't operate mechanically on any of those paradigms... But yeah keep telling yourself it's presentation..

EDIT: Even Action Surge replenishes on a long or short rest... so is it daily? No... because it will replenish on a short rest... is it an encounter? No... because it can recharge on a long rest... is it at-will? Nope... so you tell me how again is this AEDU?

4e fighter has some powers that are at will, some that recharge on a long or short rest, and some that recharge every other short rest or on a long rest (well 1), and some that only recharge on a long rest.

5e battle master fighter has some power at will, some that recharge on a long or short rest... so it is A/E, it has no daily or utlity powers... but yes longe or short is what an encounter power was called...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The character classes themselves are all the roles you will ever need. Everything else is a discussion of tactics and strategy, but it's bad form to tell all players of the same class "your role is something else". Let the game be played.

but it's good form to pretend that you can be any role you want... and then have people be confused "Why can't my fighter be like X" or "Why do all rogue have to be Y"

 

[Imaro]

5e battle master fighter has some power at will, some that recharge on a long or short rest... so it is A/E, it has no daily or utlity powers... but yes longe or short is what an encounter power was called...

No before 4e... 3.x had abilities like this where they replenished on varying timeframes...for various classes. AEDU is a very specific paradigm where a class is built with a certain amount of Daily/Encounter/At-Will and Utility powers... but just like roles in this thread many of the 4e fans are trying to argue AEDU encompasses everything... including classes that don't have an AEDU structure...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No before 4e... 3.x had abilities like this where they replenished on varying timeframes...for various classes. AEDU is a very specific paradigm where a class is built with a certain amount of Daily/Encounter/At-Will and Utility powers... but just like roles in this thread many of the 4e fans are trying to argue AEDU encompasses everything... including classes that don't have an AEDU structure...

please go back and reread what I wrote... you say NO, but if you read we said the same exact thing... let me quote myself

5e battle master fighter has some power at will, some that recharge on a long or short rest... so it is A/E, it has no daily or utlity powers... but yes longe or short is what an encounter power was called...

I never said it was AEDU... infact I said it didn't have half that...

 

[Imaro]

please go back and reread what I wrote... you say NO, but if you read we said the same exact thing... let me quote myself

I never said it was AEDU... infact I said it didn't have half that...

I misread you then, but yeah I'm not seeing AEDU in 5e contrary to what others are claiming...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I misread you then, but yeah I'm not seeing AEDU in 5e contrary to what others are claiming...

not in the fighter... the warlock I could get behind way more. I might make a case for paladin... but in general, I have to say no... In that way your right...