D&D 5E I thought that I had seen a Range limit to the sneak attack with the Ranged Weapon, 30 feet

[Warmaster Horus]

The extra attack is good insurance. The dual wielder gets an extra attempt to deal sneak attack damage compared to the bow rogue's single shot. Plus extra opportunity attacks, particularly if you can leverage something like Dissonant Whispers. An out of turn attack is quite nice to get an extra sneak attack in. A level dip in fighter or 2 in ranger gets the dual wield fighting style.

20 Dex with Studded Leather and a Dual Wielder feat is AC 18 isnt super squishy, but you are more exposed to risk than the ranged guy. However given the potential to exceed his damage, I think its fair.

When a ranged rogue attacks he typically does so from a hidden location, = Advantage. This increases his odds to hit with a sneak attack and doubles his chance to score a Crit. Cunning action allows him to displace and Hide again for next round, allowing him Advantage and Sneak Attacks on enemies not near allies (think rear-rank spellcasters). If he makes a good Stealth check and circumstances allow, it greatly reduces the chance of being attacked, too.

Also, how is the Rogue getting 2 Sneak Attacks per turn with dual wielding in normal circumstances? You can only get 1 Sneak Attack per turn and dual wielding requires a bonus action in the same turn.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Sorry if I want clear, I meant he gets a second chance to hit, and therefore deal sneak attack damage on the off-hand attack if he missed with the primary attack. Advantage often works out to be similar, though there are situations where its less good (mirror image for example), and melee users can get advantage too.

 

[Paraxis]

It is a matter of fun factor too, I have known more people who like to dart into and out of combat being an agile tumbling rogue than people who like to lurk in the back and shoot arrows every round. You can get more descriptive with the weaving, tumbling, jumping, and striking than you can with the hundredth example of shooting a guy in a vulnerable looking spot from a shadowy nook.

Personally I like both, and I think crossbow expertise and using a rapier/hand x-bow combination is fun.

 

[jgsugden]

Melee rogues get hit as well as hit themselves. If I'm playing a rogue in melee I'm making one Sneak Attack strike and then using Cunning Action to Disengage the heck out of there. The melee furball is nowhere to be when you have d8 hit dice and studded leather armor.

That is one way to go, but melee rogues often have pretty decent ACs. Studded is cheap and the high dex is a must, so many walk around at level 1 with 16 or 17 ACs. That is superior to a lot of barbarians, clerics, wildshaped druids, etc... on the front line. Your d8 hps per level mean you'll have 1+ 1/lvl less hps than a fighter - which means very little over the long haul. Regardless, doing extra attacks with sneak damage in a round often means you do not need to run away - because the foe is dead.

Both melee and ranged rogues have their merits, but a well designed melee rogue with the right equipment is going to obliterate the ranged rogue in damage output. I did a one shot where people built a 20th level PC for a dungeon crawl. 20th level, and 3 Attuned Magic Items and and 4 Unattuned Magic Items. The MVP was an Rogue (Assassin) 17 / Fighter (Champion) 3. My wizard's 40d6 meteor swarm finished off the enemy, but it was puny compared to the 300+ that the rogue delivered over 2 rounds.

 

[Thyrwyn]

I love my melee Rogue. Variant Human, Standard Array, Mobile Feat, two short swords, several daggers, some darts, ...

If I am engaged in melee, attack w/ one hand; use mobile to move over (no AoO) and whack the opponent engaged with an ally (Sneak Attack!), and, if I need to hold my place in line, hop back (no AoO).
or attack, step back 5', throw weapon at opponent engaged with ally (Sneak Attack!), hop back in...

 

[Athinar]

I love my Halfling Rogue Assassin 18th with his pocket +3 Cannon, Sharpshooter, Fighter 1st - Archery, Mage 1st - Mage Armor, average Surprise Crit damage 444

Cannon +3, command word to enlarge to normal size and ready to fire for a normal action, I have 3 of them



no truly I have a Halfling Rogue Assassin 3rd level, Fighter 1st - Archery, Mage 1st - Mage Armor, working to have Sharpshooter

 

[Athinar]

As addressed in the Siege Weapons thread, Siege Weapons are neither Ranged Weapons, nor do the have the Finesse Quality, so no Sneak Attack. Some of them are listed as being capable of making a Ranged Weapon Attack, but that does not make them Ranged Weapons. See the Entry for Orc (MM p. 246) RE: Javalins - Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack. Yet they are listed as Melee Weapons in the PHB.

I don't know what book you are reading from or you just made it up, but if it is written as a "Ranged Weapon" and it is RAW. Finesse nor Light is required for the "Range" Sneak Attack otherwise it would have been written in the book, so Heavy, two handed, Loading, and Size does not stop the Range Sneak Attack

Listed as Range Weapons in the DMG, page 255

Cannon - the ultimate Sneak Attack Weapon in 5.0
Cannon Ball, Ranged Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, Range 600/2400, one target. Hit 44 (8d10) Bludgeoning Damage

Ballista
Bolt, Ranged Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, Range 120/480 one target. Hit 16 (3d10) piercing damage

Listed as Range Weapons in the Players Handbook; Range Weapons don't need Finesse Quality

Crossbow - Light Range, two handed
Dart - Finesse Range
Sling - Range
Blowgun - Range loading
Crossbow Hand - Range, Light, loading
Crossbow, Heavy - Range, Heavy loading, two handed
Longbow - Range Heavy, two handed

Dagger is both Melee and Range and is Finesse, so you could say yes for Range Sneak Attack
Javelin is both Melee and Range and is not finesse for Melee and is not listed in the Ranged Weaponslist in the Players Handbook, so no Range Sneak Attack

If it is not listed in the Players Handbook in the "Range Weapons List" then it has to be a Finesse with Range to qualify for Sneak but you can say that the dagger is not a Ranged Weapon either because it is in the Melee list

 

[Athinar]

You know, forbidding sneak attack with ranged weapons OR adding a fixed range limit to sneak attack like in 3ed, would get rid of all problems and nonsense...

Let's all play Checkers instead, cased closed

 

[Thyrwyn]

...

Your snark is appreciated, thank you

Dagger is both Melee and Range and is Finesse, so you could say yes for Range Sneak Attack
Javelin is both Melee and Range and is not finesse for Melee and is not listed in the Ranged Weaponslist in the Players Handbook, so no Range Sneak Attack

If it is not listed in the Players Handbook in the "Range Weapons List" then it has to be a Finesse with Range to qualify for Sneak but you can say that the dagger is not a Ranged Weapon either because it is in the Melee list

1) the rules state that a weapon must be either melee or ranged, it cannot be both. (PHB, p. 146, 2nd paragraph under "Weapons")
2) A dagger is a melee weapon, that is capable of making a Ranged Weapon Attack, but is not both a Ranged Weapon and a Melee Weapon.
3) ONLY Weapons listed as Ranged Weapons in the PHB are considered Ranged Weapons; Just as Javalins and Daggers are not considered Ranged Weapons (because they are not listed as such), neither is a Siege Weapon.
4) Just because something is capable of making a Ranged Weapon Attack, does not mean it is a Ranged Weapon, it just means that it can make a Ranged Weapon Attack. See reference to Orc.
5) Siege Weapons are not Weapons - they are not called out as either Simple or Martial; there are no Rules in the DMG (the only book in which they appear) for gaining or having proficiency with them; They have a fixed bonus to hit - no proficiency bonus, no relevant stat, etc... If they were Ranged Weapons, then you would use your DEX modifier when attacking with them; you don't.

Feel free to use them as you will in your game - but calling it RAW, or RAI, even, is a stretch

 

[Athinar]

Your snark is appreciated, thank you

1) the rules state that a weapon must be either melee or ranged, it cannot be both. (PHB, p. 146, 2nd paragraph under "Weapons")
2) A dagger is a melee weapon, that is capable of making a Ranged Weapon Attack, but is not both a Ranged Weapon and a Melee Weapon.
3) ONLY Weapons listed as Ranged Weapons in the PHB are considered Ranged Weapons; Just as Javalins and Daggers are not considered Ranged Weapons (because they are not listed as such), neither is a Siege Weapon.
4) Just because something is capable of making a Ranged Weapon Attack, does not mean it is a Ranged Weapon, it just means that it can make a Ranged Weapon Attack. See reference to Orc.
5) Siege Weapons are not Weapons - they are not called out as either Simple or Martial; there are no Rules in the DMG (the only book in which they appear) for gaining or having proficiency with them; They have a fixed bonus to hit - no proficiency bonus, no relevant stat, etc... If they were Ranged Weapons, then you would use your DEX modifier when attacking with them; you don't.

Feel free to use them as you will in your game - but calling it RAW, or RAI, even, is a stretch

1 and 2 and 3.
Pg 147, Thrown. If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that that you would use for the melee attack with the weapon. For example, if you throw a handaxe, you can use your Strength, but if you throw your dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the dagger is has the finesse property.

3. Javelins has the "Thrown" property so it too can be a Ranged Attack - fits Range Weapon and Melee per "Thrown" pg 147

so add Thrown Weapons into the "Range Weapons as well

DMG came out after the Players handbook so the Siege Weapons was not in the Players handbook, but has Weapon written into the description

We use the Weapon Master Feat to add Siege Weapons

4. Ballista is a massive Crossbow that fires heavy bolts. Fits "Crossbow" in the Range Weapon list and there is nothing in the Sneak Attack that says it has to be your Dexterity to hit but has to be a finesse or Range Weapon

5. "Siege Weapons are not weapons", tell that to the Solders/Sailors/Marines/Air Force in the Civil War, in WW1, WW2, and even today with the cannons that kill thousands, BS

Pg 147 Range. A weapon that can be used to make a ranged attack has a range shown in parentheses after the ammunition or thrown property. The range lists two numbers. The first is the weapon's normal range in feet, and the second indicates the weapon's maximum range. When attacking a target beyond normal range, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. You can't attack a target beyond the weapon's long range.

Nothing about what you have to use to hit with, your Dexterity or the +6 to hit Ballista (your Proficiency would be added to this score)