Jeff Albertson
Explorer
I am still not quite comfortable with the entire approach to the warlock starting with the 3rd Ed CA, the leather-clad, edgy, bolt-blasting boy, never thought of a warlock being that sort of thing.
D&D 5E Eldritch blast and hex as class features?
- Thread starter doctorhook
- Start date
Li Shenron
Legend
I don't know exactly what EB and Hex do, I would generally assume that EB is on par with other cantrips and Hex is on par with other spells of the same level, and as such a Warlock that learns a different cantrip and spell should be about on par (not underpowered), because of now having two roughly equivalent abilities in their place. Certainly, choosing non-combat alternatives in place of EB/Hex means to be less powerful in combat, but it should compensate somewhere else.
Basic + scattered info. I totally assumed that Rangers knew all spells as in 3e, if they don't then this is new information to me. I didn't notice this during the playtest...
miniaturehoarder
First Post
EB not being built in can be viewed as an OBVIOUS beginner's trap, because even if you are a blade type, it is still one of the better ranged attacks available.
Enh, EB and to a lesser extent Hex are great options for most Warlocks, but not all Warlocks need be blasters. I can imagine builds that do just fine without them. If you're focusing less on damage and making more of a Wizard-replacement Warlock, then other cantrips might be more useful. Tome pact can get you Vicious Mockery, for example, and disadvantage on the next attack roll might be worth more than 30 extra damage.
Hex I think is actually much less of a must-have, especially at higher levels when those slots can be used for things like dominate person and hold monster.
Hex I think is actually much less of a must-have, especially at higher levels when those slots can be used for things like dominate person and hold monster.
Eldritch blast is a cantrip with range 120 ft that requires an attack roll and deals 1d10 force damage, at first. At level 5, 11, and 17, you get an extra attack with it. So far, it's on the high side of cantrip-level power (fire bolt, for example, deals the same damage but fire, which is one of the more common resistances, and deals it as a lump sum instead of as 1-4 separate attacks). However, warlocks also have a number of invocations they can choose that increase the power and utility of eldritch blast - the most notable one being Agonizing Blast which lets the warlock add his Charisma bonus to the damage of each beam. That makes it the most damaging cantrip around, though it's still roughly on par with fighter damage.
Hex is a minor curse you can place on a target and as long as you maintain concentration (up to 1 hour), the target takes 1d6 extra damage each time you hit it with a spell. You also give the target disadvantage on ability checks using an ability of your choice (not attacks or saves). If the target goes down, you can later reassign the curse as long as you maintain concentration.
The two together means that a 7th level warlock will usually be dealing 2x 1d10+4+1d6 damage, or thereabouts. That's compared to the wizard's fire bolt dealing 2d10.
Warlocks should absolutely get eldritch blast + Agonizing Blast + hex for free as class features. It is such a potent combo that you are really nerfing yourself if you don't take it, and the rules should not let you make choices that weaken your character without making it blatantly obvious that you are doing so. For example, a wizard with low Int or a fighter who runs around naked are both pretty obviously bad builds. There will always be players who want to do something weird and different; to me, game balance means nobody is underpowered by accident just because they didn't realize that their best move was a combination of spells and abilities.
Shadowdweller00
Hero
I very strongly disagree. I am of the opinion that options are preferable to requirements, railroads, or fiat. MEANINGFUL choices should exist, but it is NOT the developers' job to idiot-proof their games or classes; doing so most frequently results in mechanics that are unenjoyably simplistic (one of my personal issues with 4e, I might add). I would not ever choose to play a game or game system that is so dumbed down.
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FormerlyHemlock
Hero
In that case, you'll need a way to stop warlocks from accidentally not using EB in combat. Maybe remove their simple weapon proficiencies and bar them from multi-classing, so they are forced to spam EB instead of teleporting around stabbing things with a shortsword as the warlock/monk in my group likes to do. Clearly he shouldn't be allowed to play suboptimally. We must save him!
I'm not against options and I didn't suggest to dumb the game down; sorry if I gave that impression. I'm against TRAP options. Let me rephrase my position: A lousy option is only a trap if it's not OBVIOUS that it's lousy.
Shadowdweller00, you're free to build a fighter with great mental stats, terrible physical stats, and who prefers to wear a grass skirt and wield a noodle in battle. I would never suggest taking that option away from you or propose that this option should be just as powerful as more sensible options (and there ARE games that go to that extreme, even more so than 4e). The important thing to me is that you KNOW when you are selecting that option that you will be weaker than everyone else. Like you say, the game needn't be idiot-proof; anyone should know that a noodle is a terrible weapon (except for the Tagliatelle Grande, which decent, but should really be a simple weapon instead of martial).
But subtle combos like the warlock's triple threat are either overpowered (and should be fixed) or they are the expected norm (and should just be given out for free). At the very worst, the Quick Start advice should specifically say, "pick eldritch blast and hex, and plan to take Agonizing Blast at level 2, because they are super awesome, and only skip them if you really really know what you are doing."
You jest, but I turn this around and ask you: does this player know how powerful the EB+AB+Hex combo is??? If he's not aware of what he's missing, then he's making an uninformed choice, and that's not a real choice. If he DOES know, and he prefers to do other stuff: More power to him. I make suboptimal choices all the time, because it sounds more fun, or because it fits my character concept, but I like to know I'm doing it. I don't like the game system tricking me with what looks like a cool option (pact blade! yeah!) that turns out to be... mediocre at best.
