D&D 5E Creative solutions to the hypothetical GWF/Sharpshooter issue

[Mouseferatu]

As I've said, I'm not someone who considers the 5/10 feats broken. But I do dislike the fact that they add another decision choke point and encourage additional calculation in combat.

Someone suggested a flat +2 damage. It's a start, but it's not enough. So suppose we up the average without upping the max beyond that +2.

By this method GWM and Sharpshooter would allow you to reroll any damage dice that come up 1 or 2. If you already have this ability due to the great weapon fighting style, you reroll if it's a 1, 2, or 3. That, along with the +2, might be enough to even it out.

Thoughts?

 

[Leatherhead]

As I've said, I'm not someone who considers the 5/10 feats broken. But I do dislike the fact that they add another decision choke point and encourage additional calculation in combat.

Someone suggested a flat +2 damage. It's a start, but it's not enough. So suppose we up the average without upping the max beyond that +2.

By this method GWM and Sharpshooter would allow you to reroll any damage dice that come up 1 or 2. If you already have this ability due to the great weapon fighting style, you reroll if it's a 1, 2, or 3. That, along with the +2, might be enough to even it out.

Thoughts?

That's kinda redundant (and thus not quite as exciting as it could be), it heavily favors greatswords over greataxes (which is bad for orc barbarians), slightly favors crossbows over bows, boosts DPR in every situation as opposed to some (which is hardly an even change), and could potentially slow down combat as much as a player trying to figure out AC against a target (because they are re-rolling up to 1/2 of the time)

I don't think this is the solution that you are looking for.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

If the potential problem is an imbalance between GWF/SS and other weapon style feats, the obvious solution would be to boost those other feats. Especially since neither Dual Wielder nor Defensive Duelist is particularly optimal as-is.

DW lets you dual-wield non-light weapons (effectively +1 damage per hit, aside from weird cases like dual-wielding whips) and gives you +1 AC. (It also corrects an annoyance with the sheathe/unsheathe action economy which I assume most DMs ignore.) Sounds great, until you consider that +2 Dex does this and much more. So I'd add a fourth bullet point. Maybe a combo-style reaction: when you hit the same target with your main-hand attack and off-hand attack in one turn, you can attack that target again with your off-hand weapon as a reaction. Too much?

Defensive Duelist gives you an awesome reaction, but it only covers one attack per round. I'd add in a second bullet: you also gain +1 AC while fighting with a single one-handed weapon and no shield. This gives a slight boost to fencer-style builds, which are currently a bit undersupported. Too weak?

 

[Coredump]

Why are people against SS/GWM, but okay with Bless. Bless adds more damage. Feats like PAM and CE both add extra attacks, which are usually much more damage than SS/GWM.

Most of the examples of the "broken" SS/GWM feats includes combining with PAM/CE and Bless...... thats why it does a lot of damage.


As far as replacing the mechanic..... Things like +2 or reroll 1/2 will *always* do extra damage, the -5/+10 will often do the same or less damage. It is only useful in certain situations. Also, if all things are equal, it is normanlly better to get more hits doing less damage.... which is another disadvantage of SS/GWM. (granted, not always an issue)

The less damage a character does, the better SS/GWM is.

10 Str, using sling or dagger, no magic, 20th level,...the feat is *AMAZING*
20 Str, using Hunters Mark, Collosus slayer, sneak attack..... the feat is somewhat helpful

 

[Mephista]

I like the duelist and shield master feats. Are they considered sub-optimal?

Shield master is pretty awesome, especially for a STR build, less so for a DEX build. I think Duelist actually works well as the DEX-shield style. Its pretty effective against some enemies, but less so as you start facing more monsters with multiple attacks. I personally think it should affect more than one attack, if they come from the same opponent, but that's open to debate.

Using two weapons, while good at low levels, is increasingly problematic at higher ones. The feat is terrible - it is strictly worse than just increasing your Dexterity by 2, when it should be at least equal. Unless you start off with Dex 18 or 20, it'll be a long time before you consider it. And, even then, I'd argue for taking Sentinel, Mobile, Duelist, even Mage Slayer before that feat.

Some other problems related to this topic is that not only is the Dual Wielding feat crap, Savage Attacker and Martial Adapt are pretty bad too. They're pretty painful. On a related note, Medium Armor Mastery is pretty weak IMHO.

 

[Celtavian]

Why are people against SS/GWM, but okay with Bless. Bless adds more damage. Feats like PAM and CE both add extra attacks, which are usually much more damage than SS/GWM.

Most of the examples of the "broken" SS/GWM feats includes combining with PAM/CE and Bless...... thats why it does a lot of damage.


As far as replacing the mechanic..... Things like +2 or reroll 1/2 will *always* do extra damage, the -5/+10 will often do the same or less damage. It is only useful in certain situations. Also, if all things are equal, it is normanlly better to get more hits doing less damage.... which is another disadvantage of SS/GWM. (granted, not always an issue)

The less damage a character does, the better SS/GWM is.

10 Str, using sling or dagger, no magic, 20th level,...the feat is *AMAZING*
20 Str, using Hunters Mark, Collosus slayer, sneak attack..... the feat is somewhat helpful

I don't think anyone is against GWF or SS. I'm fine with martials doing a ton of damage. They should outdamage casters in my opinion. They did so in 3E as well. 3E martials did far more single target damage than casters. That dynamic continues in 5E. I don't want the whole two-handed style and archery style becoming the two dominant styles in 5E as they were in 3E.

It was rare I saw anything other than a two-handed martial or an archer in 3E. For pure damage both of those fighting styles outclassed everything else. It's happening again in 5E.

I want to be able to make a single-weapon fighter or two-weapon fighter and not feel like I'm gimping myself for damage.

 

[Celtavian]

Shield master is pretty awesome, especially for a STR build, less so for a DEX build. I think Duelist actually works well as the DEX-shield style. Its pretty effective against some enemies, but less so as you start facing more monsters with multiple attacks. I personally think it should affect more than one attack, if they come from the same opponent, but that's open to debate.

Using two weapons, while good at low levels, is increasingly problematic at higher ones. The feat is terrible - it is strictly worse than just increasing your Dexterity by 2, when it should be at least equal. Unless you start off with Dex 18 or 20, it'll be a long time before you consider it. And, even then, I'd argue for taking Sentinel, Mobile, Duelist, even Mage Slayer before that feat.

Some other problems related to this topic is that not only is the Dual Wielding feat crap, Savage Attacker and Martial Adapt are pretty bad too. They're pretty painful. On a related note, Medium Armor Mastery is pretty weak IMHO.

You and I are on the same page. +1 on AC equal to heavy armor proficiency and no disadvantage on stealth for Medium Armor Mastery while a heavy Armor Master is getting DR against 90% plus of physical attacks. Major value gap between feats.

 

[Celtavian]

No, it's because they don't have the "suddenly big number at level 1" effect. The DPR isn't as important (and without Bless it's significantly less than you would think) as seeing that one hit that manages to get 25+ damage when the guy next to you is averaging 8.

In my experience, the Sentinel feat has far more combat impact than GWM. It gives awesome control, in both movement and redirecting damage, and it provides more opportunities for "free" out of turn attacks.

In fact, just direct your shield users to Sentinel.

Two-weapon wielders basically double their damage at level 1 and get to use dex instead of str. Their feat grants +1 ac and +1 average damage on the off hand. Their only issues comes in later when fighters start gaining extra attacks, and suddenly the value of an extra attack for a bonus action becomes relatively less of your overall damage output. Maybe granting advantage or imposing disadvantage when the off-hand attack hits would be a good start. Alternatively you could just slap on an additional off-hand attack when you take the bonus action after level 11.

Duelist seems to be out of place. They get flat damage period and are lackluster out of the gate. I don't think they even get a specific feat. I suppose this is what you pick if you are doing grappling or being an Eldritch Knight. Hey, there is an idea, make it so they get a bonus to their save DC's. It doesn't really benefit Champions, but hey not everything has to work for everyone, just have a niche.

Sentinel is good for a control build.

 

[Mephista]

While on the topic of Dual Wielding.... I think that is just flat out badly implemented in the game. Its use is questionable outside of a class with Fighting Styles, and even then, the Ranger has issues using two weapons while a Beastmaster or using Hunter Marks / Entangling Strike; running Dueling with Hunter Marks is actually superior to using two weapons, plus extra AC. Monks also come up, but they use their own rule set which is technically different. So, basically, its only worth looking at if you're a DEX Fighter using TWF.

Rogues can dual wield on the chance they miss with their first attack, but just as often, they're using Cunning Action to do something else. If you can hit, then retreat and hide, its better to do that. Clerics sometimes come with built in bonus actions, prefer spells, sometimes not, but often there's the question if the low amount of damage is better than just the +X AC boosts from a shield (+1,+2,+3 shields don't require attunement, I believe). Valor Bards ask the same question - is the small boost on turns you're not using a Healing Word or Inspiration worth the loss of a shield? Bladelocks rely on Hex, which takes up their bonus action, and generally like having a freehand for Somantic or Material components when spells come up.

I really feel like this is a fundamental flaw in the game. I get that they don't want the whole thing to be outshined, but TWF generally feels like a trap option for a lot of people before we touch feats.


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Granted, I admit that is just my experience at my own table. Has anyone else had better experience with TWFing outside a Fighter or Monk?

 

[Nine Hands]

do you realize this steps all over the savage attacker feat

I did not but I also don't have an issue with the -5/+10 feats either