D&D 5E Character play vs Player play

[Majoru Oakheart]

I think a lot of us are familiar with this problem - maybe even feel it a bit ourselves. I just think most of us are better at controlling that reaction to adversity coming from an unknown quantity.

But I do think a practical issue comes out of this since it's at a public game. Are other participants at these D&D Expeditions starting to notice and be irritated by his whining?

Yes. But no one is annoyed as much as me. And apparently half the people don't even notice. After one session I was talking to one of the players at my table and I said "Wow...I was DMing that game and it was really frustrating to have to put up with his constant complaining about how hard the game was the whole time." He just said "Really? I didn't notice. Was he complaining?"

But he mentioned it at least 4 or 5 times during the session. I mean, that was 4 or 5 times over a 4 hour long session. Maybe I remember it more because I'm the one DMing and I kind of take it personally when someone accuses me of reading the adventure wrong. Plus, I used to be a volunteer in Living Greyhawk and Living Forgotten Realms so I know the process of creating these adventures and know most of the people involved in writing them and editing them. I can take offense to people assuming that those people would be attempting to write adventures purposefully to kill off people.

It has been at least noticed by a couple of people. When I bring it up, they'll say "Yeah, that's kind of crazy. That encounter was actually pretty easy, not sure why he was complaining like that."

But most people ignore him and move on. I'm just the one DMing so I probably notice more often than other people.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Your player sounds like they like the other thing. IF you do, too and your other players do--it's all good. If not: y'all should have a talk.

Yeah, I tried to have a talk with him about it. Multiple times in our group I said "Look, you don't know the answer to that question, you'll have to figure it out on your own." He gets angry because "That's stupid. My character should know about that or be able to figure it out." I reiterated that this was something that him as a player would have to figure out based on the clues he was given and he continued to complain that the clues were impossible to figure out and that he was given the impossible task of figuring out something that was literally impossible.

For instance, I mention way earlier in the thread. There was an adventure where someone attacks the PCs then commits suicide in jail because a succubus dominates him into doing it. She does this to hide the fact that she is a spy inside the city. If you talk to everyone, they all say that they have no idea why he'd commit suicide or attack them. They mention that he's been different since he's been dating this woman. Talking to the woman doesn't net them anything as the woman is the succubus and very good at lying. She just pretends to be heartbroken. None of them made the really hard Insight check to tell she was lying.

The adventure then has something come up to lure them away from the town on another mission in the middle of their investigation. Partially so that they can get enough levels so they are a match for the succubus when she eventually reveals herself. The adventure was written in such a way that it actually WAS virtually impossible to determine she was a succubus this earlier in the adventure. It was designed to give them suspicions so that they can feel good about themselves for guessing correctly later in the adventure.

The problem is that the player in question refused to give up the investigation when they were asked to deal with the goblins problem in another town. He said that he wanted to find the answer as to why this guy committed suicide and wasn't giving up until he figured it out. When I told him that he had already talked to pretty much everyone in town who knew the guy and looked through his house...there wasn't much more information he was going to find....he got very angry. Why would someone write an adventure that didn't give him enough information to solve the problem? Why would I choose to run such a stupid adventure? What die roll did he have to make to figure out the problem?

I finally had enough and said "Look, I'm not here to solve problems for you. You solve your own problems. You tell me what your character does, I'll tell you what happens. If you can come up with a way to solve this that works, I will let you. But your ideas have to come from you. If you don't want to play the game, then fine. I don't really want to run it for you if all you are going to do is complain constantly that the game isn't fair and you aren't getting exactly what you want exactly when you want it."

I would allow him to figure out that the succubus did it if he followed the succubus around for a while. No one in the party even suspected her though. Some people suspected another woman who was jealous of the succubus but no matter how many times they intimidated her, she hadn't given them any more information(since she didn't know anything).

After that blow up, I decided to stop running the game and the person in question's girlfriend took over DMing duties. He still complains nearly every time he's forced to come up with an idea on his own or forced to fight an encounter that has a chance of beating us, but at least as a player it seems less like his criticizing ME, so it bothers me less.

 

[Talmek]

Yeah, I tried to have a talk with him about it. Multiple times in our group I said "Look, you don't know the answer to that question, you'll have to figure it out on your own." He gets angry because "That's stupid. My character should know about that or be able to figure it out." I reiterated that this was something that him as a player would have to figure out based on the clues he was given and he continued to complain that the clues were impossible to figure out and that he was given the impossible task of figuring out something that was literally impossible.

For instance, I mention way earlier in the thread. There was an adventure where someone attacks the PCs then commits suicide in jail because a succubus dominates him into doing it. She does this to hide the fact that she is a spy inside the city. If you talk to everyone, they all say that they have no idea why he'd commit suicide or attack them. They mention that he's been different since he's been dating this woman. Talking to the woman doesn't net them anything as the woman is the succubus and very good at lying. She just pretends to be heartbroken. None of them made the really hard Insight check to tell she was lying.

The adventure then has something come up to lure them away from the town on another mission in the middle of their investigation. Partially so that they can get enough levels so they are a match for the succubus when she eventually reveals herself. The adventure was written in such a way that it actually WAS virtually impossible to determine she was a succubus this earlier in the adventure. It was designed to give them suspicions so that they can feel good about themselves for guessing correctly later in the adventure.

The problem is that the player in question refused to give up the investigation when they were asked to deal with the goblins problem in another town. He said that he wanted to find the answer as to why this guy committed suicide and wasn't giving up until he figured it out. When I told him that he had already talked to pretty much everyone in town who knew the guy and looked through his house...there wasn't much more information he was going to find....he got very angry. Why would someone write an adventure that didn't give him enough information to solve the problem? Why would I choose to run such a stupid adventure? What die roll did he have to make to figure out the problem?

I finally had enough and said "Look, I'm not here to solve problems for you. You solve your own problems. You tell me what your character does, I'll tell you what happens. If you can come up with a way to solve this that works, I will let you. But your ideas have to come from you. If you don't want to play the game, then fine. I don't really want to run it for you if all you are going to do is complain constantly that the game isn't fair and you aren't getting exactly what you want exactly when you want it."

I would allow him to figure out that the succubus did it if he followed the succubus around for a while. No one in the party even suspected her though. Some people suspected another woman who was jealous of the succubus but no matter how many times they intimidated her, she hadn't given them any more information(since she didn't know anything).

After that blow up, I decided to stop running the game and the person in question's girlfriend took over DMing duties. He still complains nearly every time he's forced to come up with an idea on his own or forced to fight an encounter that has a chance of beating us, but at least as a player it seems less like his criticizing ME, so it bothers me less.

So I have to say that I'm happy for you that you were able to resolve the problem without tearing the entire group to pieces in the process. Reading this was painful to say the least. I played alongside a character a few years ago that had a problem with complaining every time something wasn't basically provided to him on a silver platter (answers to all riddles...monsters cowering and falling in a single blow...women fawning over his character, peeling grapes for him and what-not...you get the idea). Anyway, it ultimately came to a head between the GM and this player, pretty much killing any chance for the campaign to continue in any case.

Now that I am a GM running a 5th edition game with the same (mostly) folks that were previously mentioned I haven't seen very much complaint from anyone (yet) regarding any issues. However, this also means that since we aren't very far into the adventure that there is plenty of opportunity yet for whining and telling me how unfair everything is.

 

[Hussar]

To be honest the Succubus adventure would piss me off too. Hey go kill enough goblins and you'll solve the mystery would truly piss me off. I'd be very frustrated.

However the other stuff in this thread wouldn't bother me in the least.

I'm just not very good with mysteries and they are very much not to my taste.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

To be honest the Succubus adventure would piss me off too. Hey go kill enough goblins and you'll solve the mystery would truly piss me off. I'd be very frustrated.

I kind of have to agree with you. There are significant limitations which come with using published adventures, and mysteries can be particularly difficult since they rely (in part) on misdirection. Trying to piece something together, only to be guaranteed failure due to unknowable level-based disparities, is incredibly unsatisfying.

Tying it back to the topic at-hand, this is a mis-match between player abilities and character abilities. The expectation is somehow that the player try to figure this out, yet the player is prevented from doing so by the character limitations - the inability of the character to recognize that the succubus is lying.

If it's supposed to be a puzzle for the player, then it should be based on player ability; the succubus shouldn't be able to weasel out of suspicion with just a die roll. If it's supposed to hinge on in-game character ability, then the character should also be allowed to figure out the puzzle in the first place, since the game mechanic is what is used in defense.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I kind of have to agree with you. There are significant limitations which come with using published adventures, and mysteries can be particularly difficult since they rely (in part) on misdirection. Trying to piece something together, only to be guaranteed failure due to unknowable level-based disparities, is incredibly unsatisfying.

Tying it back to the topic at-hand, this is a mis-match between player abilities and character abilities. The expectation is somehow that the player try to figure this out, yet the player is prevented from doing so by the character limitations - the inability of the character to recognize that the succubus is lying.

If it's supposed to be a puzzle for the player, then it should be based on player ability; the succubus shouldn't be able to weasel out of suspicion with just a die roll. If it's supposed to hinge on in-game character ability, then the character should also be allowed to figure out the puzzle in the first place, since the game mechanic is what is used in defense.

Getting angry at a seemingly unsolvable adventure is kind of silly. Whenever I encounter plot device solution blocking as a player then its easy to just stop caring about it and go do something else. Come back to it later? Maybe if there isn't better loot somewhere else. The player needs to take a deep breath and employ the simple technique of mind over matter. The player's shouldn't mind because the adventure doesn't matter. Not caring about it ever again is the best way to teach DMs not to do this stuff.

 

[Hussar]

Getting angry at a seemingly unsolvable adventure is kind of silly. Whenever I encounter plot device solution blocking as a player then its easy to just stop caring about it and go do something else. Come back to it later? Maybe if there isn't better loot somewhere else. The player needs to take a deep breath and employ the simple technique of mind over matter. The player's shouldn't mind because the adventure doesn't matter. Not caring about it ever again is the best way to teach DMs not to do this stuff.

True I suppose. But, by the same token, that's kind of a dick move by the player. The DM drops the scenario in front of you, it's not unreasonable for the DM to expect that you'll try to resolve the scenario. Simply picking up and leaving isn't always an option either- after all, what do you do when the other four players engage in the mystery? Sulk in the corner? It is a group game after all.

I've found that the best solution is just to be up front with the DM. I just tell DM's that I loathe puzzles, riddles and mysteries. I hate them with a burning, fiery passion. If the DM uses them, I just quietly get up, go to the bathroom, get snacks and drinks for everyone, maybe take some time checking phone messages, whatever. I don't make a fuss, I don't blow up. I just lean back and let everyone else have their fun.

Now, if the DM tries to force me to engage, then things get sticky. I get very frustrated, very quickly, and it's really obvious that I'm not enjoying myself. If the DM continues to force the issue, then I typically wind up either stone walling or start doing very destructive things - randomly attack an NPC. Don't force me to participate, and I promise not to widdle on anyone else's fun. It's a fair compromise, IMO.

 

[ExploderWizard]

True I suppose. But, by the same token, that's kind of a dick move by the player. The DM drops the scenario in front of you, it's not unreasonable for the DM to expect that you'll try to resolve the scenario. Simply picking up and leaving isn't always an option either- after all, what do you do when the other four players engage in the mystery? Sulk in the corner? It is a group game after all.

I've found that the best solution is just to be up front with the DM. I just tell DM's that I loathe puzzles, riddles and mysteries. I hate them with a burning, fiery passion. If the DM uses them, I just quietly get up, go to the bathroom, get snacks and drinks for everyone, maybe take some time checking phone messages, whatever. I don't make a fuss, I don't blow up. I just lean back and let everyone else have their fun.

Now, if the DM tries to force me to engage, then things get sticky. I get very frustrated, very quickly, and it's really obvious that I'm not enjoying myself. If the DM continues to force the issue, then I typically wind up either stone walling or start doing very destructive things - randomly attack an NPC. Don't force me to participate, and I promise not to widdle on anyone else's fun. It's a fair compromise, IMO.

I love puzzles riddles & mysteries, and will engage with them. What causes me to lose interest is the artificial blocking of solutions. If the DM drops a scenario and expects the players to care about or engage with it, then it needs to be made so. The players figuring out the solution then being told to drop it because they are not tall enough to ride is a slap in the face.

 

[Hussar]

But isn't that what you did to your players? The dc's were so high that th y needed to go do a completely unrelated quest to level up to the point where they could succeed. I'm not sure I'm seeing a difference.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I kind of have to agree with you. There are significant limitations which come with using published adventures, and mysteries can be particularly difficult since they rely (in part) on misdirection. Trying to piece something together, only to be guaranteed failure due to unknowable level-based disparities, is incredibly unsatisfying.

Tying it back to the topic at-hand, this is a mis-match between player abilities and character abilities. The expectation is somehow that the player try to figure this out, yet the player is prevented from doing so by the character limitations - the inability of the character to recognize that the succubus is lying.

If it's supposed to be a puzzle for the player, then it should be based on player ability; the succubus shouldn't be able to weasel out of suspicion with just a die roll. If it's supposed to hinge on in-game character ability, then the character should also be allowed to figure out the puzzle in the first place, since the game mechanic is what is used in defense.

What if the expectation is that the player spend a reasonable amount of time trying to figure it out, and then recognize when he's not getting anywhere and put a pin in it? I.e. what if the expectation is that problems come in parallel, instead of serial episodes? What if some problems are presented more for foreshadowing than for immediate resolution? (Although if you resolve them immediately, hey, bonus, that disaster never happens.)

Personally, if I'm going to tangle with a succubus, I'd prefer to find out that "Oh, that's why Jim Begoni killed himself! His girlfriend was a succubus all along, and if we'd thought to have the paladin Detect Evil on every NPC we encounter we would have picked up on it sooner" instead of "A succubus lunges at you from the open crypt. Roll for initiative." I likewise plant high-level threats for my PCs in the story long before I activate them. They still don't know about the Rakshasa in the palace...

Edit: however, the one thing I would do for a threat that isn't intended to be engaged directly is prevent the players from spending too much time on it. Tell them about the murder, let them interview the girlfriend and the girl who is jealous of the girlfriend (paladin can come into play here), but after ten or twenty minutes just say, "Over the course of the afternoon, you wrack your brains to come up with a new lead or a new angle on the problem, but nothing comes to mind and you're afraid you might have to file this under Unsolved Mysteries for now. As the shadows grow dark, you're about to head home for the night when suddenly a messenger bursts into your office, shouting, 'An army of giants is approaching the city!'" in order to signal to the players (not the PCs) that the "murder scene" is closed.