D&D 5E Why does 5E SUCK?

Ah, I understand the disconnect. You think I'm one of those people who cares about winning arguments, so when I say something you view it in terms of whatever previous disagreements have come up instead of as an independent item. I on the other hand saw someone who said their druid hadn't been able to do much damage mitigation, but he's a new guy and still struggling to get the hang of things, so I chipped in with a word of advice on his behalf for two of the things that druids can do to mitigate damage. Yes, Spike Growth is situational--it won't work when you're fighting missile mobs, and I believe I said that originally; and it won't work against flying creatures; but it might very well have worked against the Fire Elemental mentioned in your post, depending on terrain and what its motivation was for attacking you. In my experience anyone who sees the spikes is going to be quite reluctant to spend a full turn of movement dashing across them, taking 30 or 40 points of damage in the process (depends on geometry), in order to kill the PCs. I agree that the tactic is situational and not something for every combat, but it's a non-obvious tactic when you first read through the PHB so I thought it worth mentioning.
That's cool. It just sounded like a continuation of the 'clerics aren't efficient because...'.

Precisely. Neither does the cleric displace the druid, or the lore bard, or anyone else. The cleric is non-mandatory precisely because of opportunity cost. If you could always add a cleric without losing anyone else, obviously you'd take him and be glad. Either of us can name lots of useful things that a cleric can bring to the party.
I'm not saying any of them replaces each other. I was just saying that the most important functionality is healing/restoration that the cleric is uniquely positioned to provide. Being a loremaster or a nature guy is situationally useful, healing is ALWAYS useful.

Ah, so you just didn't know about Aura of Vitality? I will explain.

At 6th level, the Lore Bard gets Magical Secrets: two spells off any class's list. He can steal the 3rd level Paladin spell Aura of Healing. It heals 2d6 hit points with a bonus action every round for a minute, or 70 points of damage on average. This is two and a half times more efficient than Cure Wounds with 20 Wisdom. That's why I say clerical healing is inefficient.
Sounds to me like some devs didn't quite do their homework. I mean if you are going to have a cleric then surely its shtick should be healing, and neither archetypes nor past edition experience points to bards as healics. So my conclusion would be that this is RAW differing from RAI.

There are other combos that are similarly attractive when done proactively as damage mitigation (e.g. druid's Wildshape into a meat shield, or Polymorph) but Aura of Vitality bards are as good as it gets when it comes to healing damage after the fact. I would not trade my healing bardlock for a cleric, especially since he'll eventually get all the best parts of being a cleric (Bless, Death Ward) through Magical Secrets without giving up the best parts of being a bardlock (crazy good Stealth, Repelling Blast combos to blast enemies off cliffs/into walls of fire/etc., Conjured Animals, improved Counterspelling, lots of bardic inspiration dice, eventual Wish spell) and without the icky RP downsides (to me) of being a PC whom I-the-player can't intellectually respect. (That's a flaw in me BTW, not in other people, but it's one I haven't overcome yet. I am unable to relate to anyone who would worship a D&D godling any more than I can relate to people worshipping Egyptian pharaohs in real life. It just makes no sense to me why you would do that, and yet they did.)


Well, if they really did accidentally make bards vastly better healers than clerics, IMHO its a mistake, but then again nobody can be blamed for playing by the rules. There were certainly some pretty silly things you could do in past editions as well.

I'm not particularly fond of clerics either, but for a different reason. They just don't have a lot of thematic correspondence to anything in fiction or myth. Not that there's NOTHING, each bit of the cleric comes from somewhere, but its a kind of weird synthesis. I don't mind them in terms of just playing out classic 'D&D as a fantasy genre' play, but I like the option to be able to play less stereotyped games. I like D&D but I see classic D&D tropes and genre as kind of a straightjacket. This is one of my beefs with 5e, it rather slavishly sticks to those tropes. You can probably escape them more than in AD&D or 3e, but not nearly to the degree you could in 4e, where a game could borrow lots of the D&D classic material and heavily rework it.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Tony Vargas

Legend
As I said, NPCs used PC rules to determine their abilities, except in situations where the in-game reality diverged. An orcish shaman might not have the same spell access as a PC priest, but only in as much as a shaman is actually different from a priest within the world.
Sorry, that's straying into tautology territory. If an orc shaman in the MM can be different from a priest in 1e, when there were just the Cleric and Druid classes, and humanoid shamans had their own limited spell lists in the DMG, then the door is really wide open to PCs and NPCs being different. And, any objection can be silenced by changing the label. Why is that NPC Cleric of Vecna different from your Cleric of Vecna? Because he's a High-Priest of Vecna, not a Cleric.

Until 4E came around, it wasn't something worth talking about, because it was just one of those obvious things that didn't need to be said. It wasn't a particular principle of D&D, because it was such a fundamental assumption of all RPGs that there was never any reason to question it. Kind of like how gravity affects everything, all the time, and you don't usually need to mention it unless it changes suddenly.
Yeah. Then 4e came around, and, desperate to find excuses to hate it, hold-outs burrowed into those obvious things, found trivial inconsistencies that has always been with the game, and blew them out of all proportion.

As I said, the game mechanics reflect the in-game reality..... Hit Points don't exist, but the realities of the game world which are reflected in the Hit Point mechanic do exist, objectively.
There are no objective realities of the in-game world. If you think there are, you are lined up to become the Tom Hanks character in Mazes & Monsters.

Philosophers have a hard time agreeing that there are objective realities of the real world, for crying out loud.

It is objectively true that a given character possesses certain characteristics of luck, skill, toughness, and whatever else. It is a true fact of the game world that it takes an average of X number of 'hits' from Y weapon before a given character will be unable to continue fighting, for whatever definition of 'hit' you choose to employ. Or to use a less abstract example, it is a true fact of the world that some people can survive a fall from any height without dying. Hit Points reflect a real, objectively measurable phenomenon.
Hit points are a number on your character sheet. What they represent in the fiction is vague and abstract and could be taken many ways - and that's how it's always been in D&D, as one can see from reading early discussions about the hp mechanic by the game's creator.
 
Last edited:

In 5e the game is driving you to generate DCs that you like, ones that are challenging to the PCs presumably and meet the DM's agenda. Then the fiction is presumably made to be appropriate to those DCs.
You mean 4E, right? In 5E, the game is driving you to generate the fiction that you like, and then tells you what the appropriate DCs are for that fiction. The process goes in the opposite direction.

One of the benefits of Bounded Accuracy is that it's unlikely to accidentally include something that requires a check beyond the scope of what the PCs can access. This solves the 4E problem where the DM needs to constantly be aware of the world around the PCs, to ensure that they encounter level-appropriate environment. As a specific example, the DM of a 4E game needs to keep the party level in mind when describing the doors and locks and chandeliers, and the DM of a 5E game can more-or-less forget about it until it actually becomes relevant.

Although I suppose you could also just go full Feng Shui mode, and leave everything vague until the PCs actually try to do something, at which point there's obviously a level-appropriate lighting fixture exactly where they need it to be.
 

OK

I've been in numerous debates with 4E fans calling me "h4ter" for not liking this feature.

So be it.

You're of course perfectly welcome to hate that technique. I just don't think anyone can in all fairness call it a central feature of 4e. It MAY have been intended, I don't really know, but the game works perfectly well without it. In the MMs they sometimes stat up different variations of a certain monster at quite different levels. This clearly serves a sort of adjustment-like purpose. For example Orcus has a bunch of epic level minion ghouls he can summon. They're different from normal ghouls, and MUCH higher level, so I don't think they are exactly 'minionized ghouls', but they certain serve the purpose of "a type of ghoul that works in the context of being summoned by Orcus."

I personally like the concept, and I have used it, though I don't think it is something that I need to lean on too heavily.
 

If an orc shaman in the MM can be different from a priest in 1e, when there were just the Cleric and Druid classes, and humanoid shamans had their own limited spell lists in the DMG, then the door is really wide open to PCs and NPCs being different. And, any objection can be silenced by changing the label. Why is that NPC Cleric of Vecna different from your Cleric of Vecna? Because he's a High-Priest of Vecna, not a Cleric.
There are differences which can be justified, and differences which cannot be justified. A High-Priest should be different from a Cleric in ways that reflect the actual differences between those individuals within the game world. The High-Priest probably has some different powers.

It doesn't justify using different formulas for attack bonus or Hit Points or defenses. The reality of the game world which is reflected by those game mechanics is not a difference between the Cleric and the High-Priest.

Philosophers have a hard time agreeing that there are objective realities of the real world, for crying out loud.
Philosophy is irrelevant. Science is what matters, and scientists are practically unanimous in their understanding of physical laws on the scale that the game represents.
 

BryonD

Hero
You're of course perfectly welcome to hate that technique. I just don't think anyone can in all fairness call it a central feature of 4e. It MAY have been intended, I don't really know, but the game works perfectly well without it.
You need to talk to the people calling me h4ter about that, not me.

In the MMs they sometimes stat up different variations of a certain monster at quite different levels. This clearly serves a sort of adjustment-like purpose. For example Orcus has a bunch of epic level minion ghouls he can summon. They're different from normal ghouls, and MUCH higher level, so I don't think they are exactly 'minionized ghouls', but they certain serve the purpose of "a type of ghoul that works in the context of being summoned by Orcus."
So? The topic is that it has "A". I agree that is also has "B". The issues with "A" don't go away because "B" exists.

I personally like the concept, and I have used it, though I don't think it is something that I need to lean on too heavily.
Noted.
I personally find this to be one of numerous issues in the system. I'm not here to dwell on it.
I was responding to a disfunctional claim about 3E monsters working the same way. (Strange that I'd have to challenge that idea if it doesn't really exist as a common element of 4E, again making the point that you should be taking issue with 4E fans undercutting your position and not with me).
The 3E claim I disputed remains laughably wrong regardless of how you play 4E.
If you dispute that claim, please let me hear it. But the 4E debate is history as far as I am concerned.
 

I don't think it's explicit about the fiction at all. It's telling you that the first priority is to set an "appropriate DC"... it then goes on to give an unclear example of what exactly is appropriate at that level/DC. IMO that's one of the problems with 4e's DC's... it tells you... "Hey set an appropriate DC then construct some appropriate fiction... but it doesn't give you a good basis to design said fiction. In the example above you cited is it saying majority of your doors should be barred? That the PC's should never run into wooden doors at that level or that iron doors are too hard?
Because appropriate DCs are what work. Remember, 'appropriate' doesn't mean 'a specific DC'. In the iron door example it says "unless you want it to be hard", so maybe the iron door IS appropriate, IF you want a hard to open door. The normal assumption is that you want Medium DCs. This is not vague in the full context of the section, as a few pages below are listed the DCs for various doors, with the iron door at DC 26, the wooden door at 16, barred door at 20, and there are some others too. So, if you look at the DC chart level 10 medium DC is 18, which means a wooden door is easy-ish, and an iron door is fairly difficult. Barred doors will be a good element to use for a door that is challenging but should fall to the PCs attempts without a lot of extra effort. You should of course note that these are 'typical' DCs and are called out as examples. You don't have to put barred doors in all your dungeons just to satisfy a DC, you can simply say "the wooden doors here are on the stout side, made of dwarvish mountain oak, DC 18." But note, now you've done exactly what people seem to be resisting admitting 4e does, make the world's fiction and mechanics consistent.

I also think it's combination of objective and scaling DC's causes a certain incoherency in the game when it comes to challenges... as illustrated by the difference between a wooden door and the Cave Slime I mention below. One's DC is objective and the other one's is level appropriately based...

The terrain text illustrates exactly what some of the people in here are talking about. If you look under Cave Slime, it states...

"This thin blue slime is harmless but extremely slick. A creature that enters a square filled with cave slime must succeed at an Acrobatics check or fall prone. Use the difficulty Class by Level table (page 42) to set a DC that's appropriate to the character's level."

The rules are specifically stating that this slime scales with the PC's levels... so even though their level and bonuses increase, their chance to not slip stays the same. This is exactly what I and some of the other posters are talking about in this thread... and this isn't the only one written like this.
But again, there's no indication that AN INDIVIDUAL PATCH OF CAVE SLIME has a different DC for different characters. Just that in a level 20 area its level 20 cave slime, and in a level 5 area its level 5 cave slime. Presumably you'd describe it that way (IE this cave slime looks particularly thick and slippery). Probably in the level 20 area you don't even bother to describe the bits that are thin and not too slippery (IE level 5) as nobody even cares at that point, all the PCs will auto-pass a level 5 Medium DC. You are of course again free to decide what is appropriate, maybe you want level 20 cave slime so the PCs get shot down a slope and can't catch themselves at level 5. Go for it!

Again I am asking where is this stated. IMO, and I've brought this up before in other discussions, 4e confuses the matter because it is a mixture of objective DC's which are tied tightly to the fiction and scaling DC's that aren't. And, as seen in the case of some of the terrain the fiction is not always changed to match a changing in the DC's.

Well, presumably there simply isn't enough page space in the DMG to make up 5 kinds of cave slime that have different DCs. The whole section is examples, sort of 'dungeon clip art' for the DM to borrow. Chances are you use Cave Slime a few times within a specific level range and then 10 levels later in some totally different environment you can have 'Elemental Cave Slime' or something. In fact later DM resource books all have sections detailing specific terrains that are useful in those places.

As for 'where it is stated' that encounters are level-appropriate? It is assumed throughout the whole system. Explicitly the Adventure construction chapter of the DMG has a chart on page 104, part of a whole section on that page, which directly addresses the range and mix of encounters in an adventure.

To address your other statement about level appropriateness and encounters... you listed 3 types of encounters... combat, skill challenge and puzzle. You state that combat and skill challenge are supposed to be built around appropriate level DC's, so that leaves... puzzles? How do you even make puzzles level appropriate? Of course they give rules for puzzles as SC's in which case you would design it as level appropriate.
Puzzles are described as player tests, and then they describe how you COULD use checks as part of the puzzle, if you want. Its a way of describing for the DM the process of giving the players a challenge instead of the characters. Its rather 'retro' for 4e I guess, but its a time-honored aspect of D&D, so they describe it. I didn't talk about them because there's really not much to say. They don't have any math (or else they are just SCs).

Yes but this has nothing to do with level appropriate challenges and everything to do with capability. In other words it is not the fiction around difficulty that is changing... it is the DM judging that the capability to address the challenge in that way is not there.
My point is that the world doesn't just consist of a huge list of the Medium DC. Clearly in any city street there are a billion things a PC could theoretically do, but 99.999% of them are impossible for your average low level PC. In other words they have DCs that would require epic or even godlike bonuses to pass. Some may be just ridiculously hard (IE you might be able to steal the gem off the statue that is in plain sight in the busy market square guarded by 10 guards if you pass a DC31 Stealth check. This is BARELY possible for a super optimized level 1 Rogue, go for it!).

None of these DCs scale, they won't be harder or easier at different levels, they represent objective reality. The DC chart just tells you which characters at what levels you can expect to pass them.

This is my point though... not only is it not discussed... it's the opposite of everything the DMG 1 puts forth. In other words having level appropriate DC's is stressed throughout encounter design.

Yes, because encounter design talks about combat encounters of appropriate level, which are assumed to be ones that the PCs can win most of the time, but will find challenging. There isn't a lot that need be said about trivial encounters that you just win, or ones that if you attempt them you just die. They hardly need be designed at all! And as far as SCs go, again, it makes no sense to design ones that the PCs can't pass. The players should be saying "gosh, we're first level, we can't take on the Vampire Lord, lets not go try to intimidate him" instead maybe they go look for a holy sword.

Obviously its possible for players to just not get the idea, or want to, go and do things that are basically suicidally hard. Maybe they can find a way to succeed, nothing in 4e suggests that adventuring 'off level' is bad or impossible. It just doesn't get a lot of airplay because presumably you don't need guidelines for making things too hard.
 

Except in some places that's exactly how 4e tells you to do it...

In some places 4e presents things like those fantastic terrains where they are useful at all levels. Then if there's a DC they say "set it via the chart", but I don't see any indication they intend that to be a dynamic scaling, the section is encounter DESIGN, not what to do at the table during play.

As I said before, I would presume they looked at it and said "gosh, with infinite page count we'd have Red Cave Slime, Orange Cave Slime, Yellow Cave Slime, Green Cave Slime, Blue Cave Slime, Indigo Cave Slime, and Violet Cave Slime with increasing DCs, but we got a page limit here. Instead they provide a pretty long list of terrains, with 'use appropriate DC' to keep it sane.

In contrast, later on, they list a LARGE number of types of traps, each one built to a specific level and with level-appropriate descriptions. I would assume they considered traps to be more significant than fantastic terrain.

How does 5e handle this? Do they talk about fantastic terrain?
 

S_Dalsgaard

First Post
It seems to me, that when people likes a rule in their favorite edition, they use that to show what a great edition it is, and when they don't like a rule, they use that to show how easy it is to houserule their favorite edition. Funnily enough that seems to fit both those who prefer 4e and those who prefer 5e :)
 

BryonD

Hero
It seems to me, that when people likes a rule in their favorite edition, they use that to show what a great edition it is, and when they don't like a rule, they use that to show how easy it is to houserule their favorite edition. Funnily enough that seems to fit both those who prefer 4e and those who prefer 5e :)

Exactly.
 

Remove ads

Top