D&D 5E So, 5e OGL

[Wicht]

And yet it is.
The knowledge, by its nature, requires you to go outside the normal sources of information. The details cannot be found in a regular gaming book. They're not front-and-center of the website. Details must be sought out.

Yet, once the information is learned, it is easily remembered.

People talk. They share information they know.

 

[Wicht]

But we're talking about people who aren't purchasing the item.

One gamer needs the books, the other just need to be there. Very often, a gaming group will be one dedicated DM, a couple semi-dedicated players, and a couple people just there to fill out the table. They're all gamers, but not all going to be equally interested in the nuances of the game. In the same way when you go to a friend's board game night you may not know what studio published a certain game or the politics that occurred behind the scenes. [/url]

Anecdote Time...
I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons for over thirty years, starting as a kid back in about '82. My younger sister sometimes played with me, but it wasn't really her thing. Still, she had some exposure...

Moving on, I have four kids. All four can tell you about Dungeons and Dragons, Pathfinder, Paizo, and about 3pp. They were exposed to it through me, but being the sort they are, they also glean information and my two sons in particular are avidly interested in the scene.

Back to my sister, she has two kids... They, through their cousins, my children, got interested in Pathfinder and they now have several Paizo products. They are about ten. They don't much care about the OGL yet, but they are informed as to where to shop for what they want. Their mother, who is not a player, still knows enough as to where to shop for what her children want...

So sure, there are people who don't know and don't care, but from my experience, it is plenty easy to get people interested and when they are interested they begin to find out about these things. And people do. Including mothers with kids who are getting into the hobby, the kids of those who are into the hobby, and the cousins of those who are into the hobby.

I realize that anecdotes don't really tell a lot about the larger picture, but that goes both ways. For groups where there is just one interested party, there are others where there are multiple interested parties. And even if the GM is still the only one informed, that still represents more than 1% of the gaming population.

 

[Jester David]

Anecdote Time...
I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons for over thirty years, starting as a kid back in about '82. My younger sister sometimes played with me, but it wasn't really her thing. Still, she had some exposure...

Moving on, I have four kids. All four can tell you about Dungeons and Dragons, Pathfinder, Paizo, and about 3pp. They were exposed to it through me, but being the sort they are, they also glean information and my two sons in particular are avidly interested in the scene.

Back to my sister, she has two kids... They, through their cousins, my children, got interested in Pathfinder and they now have several Paizo products. They are about ten. They don't much care about the OGL yet, but they are informed as to where to shop for what they want. Their mother, who is not a player, still knows enough as to where to shop for what her children want...

So sure, there are people who don't know and don't care, but from my experience, it is plenty easy to get people interested and when they are interested they begin to find out about these things. And people do. Including mothers with kids who are getting into the hobby, the kids of those who are into the hobby, and the cousins of those who are into the hobby.

I realize that anecdotes don't really tell a lot about the larger picture, but that goes both ways. For groups where there is just one interested party, there are others where there are multiple interested parties. And even if the GM is still the only one informed, that still represents more than 1% of the gaming population.

Do you think your sister could tell you about the relationship between Pathfinder and D&D? Does she know the companies involved? How about her kids or yours?

 

[Wicht]

Do you think your sister could tell you about the relationship between Pathfinder and D&D? Does she know the companies involved? How about her kids or yours?

Yes.

Because we talked about it.

 

[Jester David]

I think you might also adjust your terminology to not seemingly equate OGL (or any open game license, of which there are quite a few) with 3PP. I think it confuses the situation to limit any open material with 3PP only.

By definition, any products created under the OGL are 3rd Party Products. Now, not all products made by 3rd Parties might be done under the Open Game Licence, and not all OGL products are done by 3rd Party Publishers (such as fan products), but the usage of the OGL for fan products has always been kinda iffy.

See, you discussed this earlier as if your own experience is the prevailing one

I doubt very much that it is.

I was online early myself, but I know many who frequented conventions or went to game stores, or who really only got their information through the various magazines that were available during that period. I mean, I'm not saying you didn't have that experience, just that I had a different one and so did many, many others.

People who go to conventions is rare, and again, are not the norm. The magazines were likely a good source of information and likely the primary means of information, but, again, if you're buying the magazine you're more than a casual fan.

Again, according to Erik Mona, the 3.0 PHB sold around 500,000 copies. Half a million. Likely some doubles and likely some to the same group. But there are millions of gamers out there. Which means half to 3/4 of gamers didn't even buy a PHB. If not more. And many groups likely only bought the core rulebooks. So while there were likely lots of groups that are informed and buying the magazines and talking to other games, just as many were likely playing in effective isolation with their small group of friends. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a thriving community of gamers that are all interacting, or dedicated game stores with informed staff, or experienced players who know the history of the game they're playing.

If you weren't getting that information or just not looking for it, that's cool, and I am sure there were others in that same boat. But of the folks I gamed with through that era, at home, at gamestores, at conventions, etc., most seemed to know what was happening with TSR and kept up with who was producing what so you could get their catalogs or watch for their upcoming releases through gamestores or magazines.

But you're only going to seek out and retain that information if you're invested in the game. I couldn't tell you squat about, oh, Fantasy Flight Games despite owning several of their products. Because FFG is not that important to me, and their board games are not a major part of my life. I play the games but D&D is my obsession.
But I'm sure people who love board games, go to board game conventions, and regularly frequent boardgamegeek.com could tell you much more and rattle off the news, list important staff, and so much more. Because it's their hobby.


The OGL is crazy esoteric. It's unrelated to the actual playing of the game. The details of the licence don't even really matter for buying or using 3rd Party products. For publishers it's a big deal. They can do things like discuss the nuances of Section 15 and formatting. But that's not really useful to anyone else.

 

[Jester David]

Yes.

Because we talked about it.

And would they have known that information without someone like you telling them?
Do you think everyone gaming group has or knows someone as informed about the game as you?

 

[Wicht]

By definition, any products created under the OGL are 3rd Party Products.

That's not true at all.

 

[Jester David]

Example on the esoteric nature of the OGL: why was character creation prohibited from being included in many products published under the OGL? How can Pathfinder include it?

That's something that's super important to know about making an OGL product, especially a game, but is not obvious nor is it described in the OGL.

 

[Mark CMG]

The OGL is crazy esoteric. It's unrelated to the actual playing of the game. The details of the licence don't even really matter for buying or using 3rd Party products. For publishers it's a big deal. They can do things like discuss the nuances of Section 15 and formatting. But that's not really useful to anyone else.

"Details" of the license? You've raised the threshold form knowing the license exists and that (in the case of 3PPs) knowing it can mean a 3PP is selling something compatible for their game to Discussing Section 15 info? All right. I give.

 

[Jester David]

That's not true at all.

How is it not?
1st Party products don't need to use the OGL since they're created by WotC.
2nd Party products are those created by the user (the purchaser of the 1PP) for themself. They don't need to use the OGL.

Give me an example where the OGL is being used to create a product where a 3rd party is NOT involved.