D&D 5E So, 5e OGL

[SkidAce]

This assumes that the players know enough about the game to realize that 3PP exist and that the DM was running a 3PP adventure. Let alone that it was done under a special licence.
That's some insider knowledge right there.

I don't find knowledge of that level very extraordinary at all.

 

[Jester David]

I don't find knowledge of that level very extraordinary at all.

And yet it is.
The knowledge, by its nature, requires you to go outside the normal sources of information. The details cannot be found in a regular gaming book. They're not front-and-center of the website. Details must be sought out.

I remember how I found out. The clerk at my FLGS told me about the 3e licence. Otherwise I would have just assumed they were unofficial content, like video games without the "Nintendo Seal of Approval". Assuming I even realized it was compatible.

 

[Mark CMG]

And yet it is.
The knowledge, by its nature, requires you to go outside the normal sources of information. The details cannot be found in a regular gaming book. They're not front-and-center of the website. Details must be sought out.

I remember how I found out. The clerk at my FLGS told me about the 3e licence. Otherwise I would have just assumed they were unofficial content, like video games without the "Nintendo Seal of Approval". Assuming I even realized it was compatible.

Same way we found out about Mayfair's Role Aids and Judges Guild stuff back in the day. That doesn't seem extraordinary. Maybe this is a generational thing? Are you actually equating dedication in fandom to generally getting information online rather than face-to-face? Maybe this is the place where our conversation is breaking down?

 

[Jester David]

Same way we found out about Mayfair's Role Aids and Judges Guild Stuff back in the day. That doesn't seem extraordinary. Maybe this is a generational thing? Are you actually equating dedication in fandom to generally getting information online rather than face-to-face? Maybe this is the place where our conversation is breaking down?

See, I'm pretty well versed in D&D histroy, but I don't recall what those are off the top of my head. Because they were before my time and didn't catch my interest.

Like anything else, there will be the insider knowledge that separates the big fans from the casual people. That's common in most hobbies. Some people just watch their shows and some listen to the commentaries, follow creator and cast on Twitter, read news, and more.
We're regularly posting on a fan site. We're pretty far from the norm.

And there are levels of knowledge. Among the fans that know of the OGL, many might be aware of few details beyond "it lets people make compatible products" with the big differences with the GSL being vaguer.

 

[Mark CMG]

See, I'm pretty well versed in D&D histroy, but I don't recall what those are off the top of my head. Because they were before my time and didn't catch my interest.

It's hard to think of something as "history" when it happened during your lifetime and with you involved on some level.

Like anything else, there will be the insider knowledge that separates the big fans from the casual people. That's common in most hobbies. Some people just watch their shows and some listen to the commentaries, follow creator and cast on Twitter, read news, and more.
We're regularly posting on a fan site. We're pretty far from the norm.

And there are levels of knowledge. Among the fans that know of the OGL, many might be aware of few details beyond "it lets people make compatible products" with the big differences with the GSL being vaguer.

Maybe it is the term "insider knowledge" that you use that is throwing things off a bit. Having some consumer information isn't a secret. It also doesn't require being a dedicated fan of something. I don't consider being aware of what you are purchasing, where it comes from and who makes it, all that extraordinary either. I'm glad I asked about the Mayfair and Judges Guild products because I think that got us closer to understanding one another.

 

[aramis erak]

I'll admit, here and now, I was vastly wrong about WotC needing an OGL. They've done very well without it. But what does irritate me just a little is that people DON'T care more about what an open license has brought the industry. A lot of people who don't care are playing Pathfinder, 13th age, a variety of OSR games, Savage Worlds (which was a reaction to d20, according to Shane Hensley himself), fantasy AGE & Mutants & Masterminds (created by Green Ronin), and even D&D 5 itself (both lead designers got their prominence working on OGL products, and Open Design and GR Exist because of the OGL.) i'm not claiming it's the sole source of 21st century gaming or something silly, but its existance massively shaped 4 of the 5 most popular tabletop RPGs being played today.

Sure, the OGL has done some good...
It's strengthened the PDF market.
It's allowed some cool innovative adaptations of other games.
It's allowed some nifty 3rd party supplements to happen.

The OGL isn't all happiness...
It's brought a crapton of lousy 3PP supplements that nearly killed off the FLGS as an industry.
It's brought a number of what would have otherwise been unpublishable piles of drivel and given them access to a depraved market segment that does the industry a major disservice by their very existence. (Fatal being a relatively tame example thereof. Worse exists.)
It's caused some really good publishers to pick really sexualized art in order to stand out enough from the drivel to get noticed. (Avalanche Press, anyone?)
Its resulted in some rather questionable moves by a couple publishers that look like attempts to sabotage the license that's just about to end. (Involving republishing without the licensed material being properly removed, and/or dumping PDFs just prior to the license expiring.)
It's lead some publishers to take bigger risks with licensed properties than they should because they count on the open licensed rules' popularity.
It's also lead some publishers to not make needed adaptations because they don't want to lose the fans of whatever system they're basing upon.

Overall, is the OGL Positive? Hard to say.
It's certainly done Monte Cook no harm...
Nor the Paizo crew.

Tho' I do wonder what wonderful new stuff the Paizo crew would have done if they hadn't had the ability to essentially pirate D&D 3.5...

 

[prosfilaes]

It's brought a crapton of lousy 3PP supplements that nearly killed off the FLGS as an industry.

The FLGS is always dying. It's a marginal business at best. Moreover, I've never seen a FLGS that sold only RPGs; most of them seem to make most of their money off board games, Magic, Warhammer, etc. If everyone suddenly stopped playing RPGs over the next few years, my FLGSs would simply phase out the couple of shelves of RPGs for more board games, etc.

It's brought a number of what would have otherwise been unpublishable piles of drivel and given them access to a depraved market segment that does the industry a major disservice by their very existence. (Fatal being a relatively tame example thereof. Worse exists.)

What does Fatal have to do with the OGL? I have no clue how the OGL has anything to do with any of that, unless you're blaming the existence of small publishers and DriveThruRPG on the OGL. Maybe not DriveThruRPG, but if you're not a big publisher, and not on DriveThruRPG or maybe Paizo or E23, then you're in your own backwoods, where I'm pretty sure that's always been publishable on the Internet and you can use GURPS, D&D, whatever, and the odds anyone will ever notice is minimal.

It's caused some really good publishers to pick really sexualized art in order to stand out enough from the drivel to get noticed. (Avalanche Press, anyone?)

You are responsible for your own actions. If a publisher uses sexualized art to stand out, then it's their own fault.

It's lead some publishers to take bigger risks with licensed properties than they should because they count on the open licensed rules' popularity.

Again, you are responsible for your own actions. If a publisher misjudges the market, that's their own fault. I see absolutely no reason to think that the OGL changed this at all; there's been lots of flash in the pan licensed works, and a lot of companies having trouble with licenses, long before the OGL.

It's also lead some publishers to not make needed adaptations because they don't want to lose the fans of whatever system they're basing upon.

So it's better for them to be using an ad-hoc system that they're constantly changing because the fans aren't in love with the rules, instead of a system that the fans are in love with?

Tho' I do wonder what wonderful new stuff the Paizo crew would have done if they hadn't had the ability to essentially pirate D&D 3.5...

It's a shame that all the non-TSR people before the OGL were so uncreative then; it wasn't until Paizo that we had anyone who could create wonderful new stuff, and the bad, bad OGL sidelined them. Bah. More likely Paizo would have never existed without the OGL, or struggled along.

 

[Jester David]

It's hard to think of something as "history" when it happened during your lifetime and with you involved on some level.

It was likely in my lifetime, but I wasn't involved.

Maybe it is the term "insider knowledge" that you use that is throwing things off a bit. Having some consumer information isn't a secret. It also doesn't require being a dedicated fan of something. I don't consider being aware of what you are purchasing, where it comes from and who makes it, all that extraordinary either. I'm glad I asked about the Mayfair and Judges Guild products because I think that got us closer to understanding one another.

But we're talking about people who aren't purchasing the item.
One gamer needs the books, the other just need to be there. Very often, a gaming group will be one dedicated DM, a couple semi-dedicated players, and a couple people just there to fill out the table. They're all gamers, but not all going to be equally interested in the nuances of the game. In the same way when you go to a friend's board game night you may not know what studio published a certain game or the politics that occurred behind the scenes.

Yeah, being informed in your purchases is handy. By that definition, you only need to be informed on 3PP if buying 3PP. And when most players don't even buy a PHB, why then would they know about 3PP and the OGL?

I mean, for example, I was on the internet pretty early. 1995 or so. I remember a lot about T$R and people being coy with comparability with their fan material to avoid being shut down. But it was years before I heard about the Lorraine Williams drama or conflict inside TSR. And it was well into the 3e era before I realized that TSR was no longer the publisher of D&D. When I noticed the name "Wizards of the Coast" I thought they'd changed names, not that a game as successful as D&D (in my mind) would have been purchased. I liked D&D so I spent my time reading D&D material, not TSR material. Getting involved and interested in the back end came much later.

 

[Mark CMG]

But we're talking about people who aren't purchasing the item.

Naw, we were discussing gamers as a whole and you (I think it was you, no?) suggested at one point that gamers who purchased certain things had "insider" knowledge and that was what I went on to discuss. If you keep switch tracks and then tell me I'm on the wrong track, we won't get very far in the discussion.

 

[Mark CMG]

Yeah, being informed in your purchases is handy. By that definition, you only need to be informed on 3PP if buying 3PP. And when most players don't even buy a PHB, why then would they know about 3PP and the OGL?

I think you might also adjust your terminology to not seemingly equate OGL (or any open game license, of which there are quite a few) with 3PP. I think it confuses the situation to limit any open material with 3PP only.

I mean, for example, I was on the internet pretty early. 1995 or so. I remember a lot about T$R and people being coy with comparability with their fan material to avoid being shut down. But it was years before I heard about the Lorraine Williams drama or conflict inside TSR. And it was well into the 3e era before I realized that TSR was no longer the publisher of D&D. When I noticed the name "Wizards of the Coast" I thought they'd changed names, not that a game as successful as D&D (in my mind) would have been purchased. I liked D&D so I spent my time reading D&D material, not TSR material. Getting involved and interested in the back end came much later.

See, you discussed this earlier as if your own experience is the prevailing one whereas my experience and the one of which I am aware is much more informed, apparently. I was online early myself, but I know many who frequented conventions or went to game stores, or who really only got their information through the various magazines that were available during that period. I mean, I'm not saying you didn't have that experience, just that I had a different one and so did many, many others. If you weren't getting that information or just not looking for it, that's cool, and I am sure there were others in that same boat. But of the folks I gamed with through that era, at home, at gamestores, at conventions, etc., most seemed to know what was happening with TSR and kept up with who was producing what so you could get their catalogs or watch for their upcoming releases through gamestores or magazines.